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  1. #1
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    Default Neurotransmitter Restoration (NTR)

    I wanted to start this thread not to waste time with those who do not think it is an option but to concentrate on those who might or at least know if there is any interest at all.

    NTR is a great first step into an abstinence based recovery model. You have to stop using before you can enter recovery. I have read post after post of people trying to taper off of suboxone or other drugs and they spend weeks months or even years trying to get off drugs.

    If you have questions about NTR this is the place to ask.

    mike
    mike

  2. #2
    manrayscamera is offline Senior Member
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    Hi Mr Sanders,
    i hope this thread deveops as intended as it would be inappropriate to have it hijacked.I have a few questions of a general type that those interested in NTR may be interested in.

    1) COWS etc are very useful to follow progress and assess,can you quote some figures re COWS/SOWS/AOWS scoring just to get an objective measure of things(obviously not AOWS alone).One phenomenon that is seen is that there is actually significant variation in scoring if someone is craving vs not craving both in terms of individual and time.ie check them 15 min later and they are better.That might sound like i am stating the obvious i am not eg bupe/clonidine/lofexedine etc can blunt physical phenomena but not wholely blunt cravings and vice versa.This can lead to a mismatch ie cravings but COWS v low or no craving andscoring on COWS(this is the most commen i am aware of and almost invariably goes rapidly).This mismatch can alter treatment unneccessarily.Have you picked up on this with NTR?If you have any scores plus SD,variance etc i would be interested to know.COWS etc is a useful tool,I wonder if you find it so.

    2)Drugs of choice all act differently and hang around longer/shorter.I am curious as to what reference is used to guide dosing.Obviously individual pharmokinetics;have alook at them from the end of the bed etc.My experience is that it is difficult to determine needs with the mark one eyeball,what do you use.

    3)You cite cure figures of 100%.I am unaware of any orthodox therapy being 100% sure of cure.Again curious as to what measures of cure are used.Also you cited need for top up.Does this imply failure or something else.Is there any reason a person couldn't take an oral NTR concoction to spare readmission.

    There are other questions that remain unanswered putting those aside the above may help illuminate things for readers.

    Wishing you well
    M'camera

  3. #3
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    Hello M'camera

    COWS scores are logged daily for opiates the CIWA scores alcohol
    Out the last 40 patients the highest score we have experienced was 14. the average score is 4-5
    We measure cravings as to frequency, duration and intensity. We don't experience cravings from day one.

    I don't understand the 3rd question. we don't taper of the drugs so we don't dose.

    My statement about 100% really is not a fair statement even though technically it was correct. we have treated just over 100 people this year. Four of those did not complete treatment. All of those that did complete treatment were no longer physically addicted. Just under 20% of those have either relapsed or we have just lost contact with them. The 15,000 patients is the number that have been treated with NTR since Dr. Hitt began treating in the 80's. My clinics have only been in operation since September of 2006

    Proper diet should be all most people need. The oral and I know you don't like this phrase does not provide the extended bathing that the receptors need for restoration

    Have a good evening,
    quote:Originally posted by manrayscamera

    Hi Mr Sanders,
    i hope this thread deveops as intended as it would be inappropriate to have it hijacked.I have a few questions of a general type that those interested in NTR may be interested in.

    1) COWS etc are very useful to follow progress and assess,can you quote some figures re COWS/SOWS/AOWS scoring just to get an objective measure of things(obviously not AOWS alone).One phenomenon that is seen is that there is actually significant variation in scoring if someone is craving vs not craving both in terms of individual and time.ie check them 15 min later and they are better.That might sound like i am stating the obvious i am not eg bupe/clonidine/lofexedine etc can blunt physical phenomena but not wholely blunt cravings and vice versa.This can lead to a mismatch ie cravings but COWS v low or no craving andscoring on COWS(this is the most commen i am aware of and almost invariably goes rapidly).This mismatch can alter treatment unneccessarily.Have you picked up on this with NTR?If you have any scores plus SD,variance etc i would be interested to know.COWS etc is a useful tool,I wonder if you find it so.

    2)Drugs of choice all act differently and hang around longer/shorter.I am curious as to what reference is used to guide dosing.Obviously individual pharmokinetics;have alook at them from the end of the bed etc.My experience is that it is difficult to determine needs with the mark one eyeball,what do you use.

    3)You cite cure figures of 100%.I am unaware of any orthodox therapy being 100% sure of cure.Again curious as to what measures of cure are used.Also you cited need for top up.Does this imply failure or something else.Is there any reason a person couldn't take an oral NTR concoction to spare readmission.

    There are other questions that remain unanswered putting those aside the above may help illuminate things for readers.

    Wishing you well
    M'camera
    mike

  4. #4
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    Tuba,

    There is no cure for addiction and keep in mind I am not reading this on a forum, I have seen these 100 patients and 100,s of others go through this treatment as well as myself four years ago and lets not forget John from the SS forum just two days ago.

    No I don't find it odd, Challenging yes but it is a journey worth traveling.

    Thanks for your interest

    Mike
    [quote]quote:Originally posted by tubalkain

    Mr Sanders,

    thank you for your answers. Your success rate is amazing to say the least. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

    1) statistically speaking, out of 100 patients treated 4 discontinued treatment, out of remaining 96, 18 either relapsed or were impossible to establish contact with and were presumed to have relapsed, but 78 remained clean and sober until at least 12 months after the therapy.

    2) Theoretically some of those 78 might have relapsed at some point but have not become re-addicted.

    3) Your results are consistent with what other NTR clinics report, standard deviation is small.

    4) Recovery or sobriety in those 78 is a proven fact because they are drug tested every time they come for boosters, which is every quarter. Between boosters contact is maintained with those patients and an interview takes place at least once monthly. They are encouraged to take additional steps in their recovery (therapy, exercise, sensible diet, group...), quizzed about various things, asked whether they have had any cravings and they are also explicitly asked if they used any drugs since their last interview (or therapy).

    5) Patients, those 78 that is, deny any drug use and as their subsequent drug testing confirms they are stable it is reasonably safe to presume they have indeed kept clean and were not lying.

    6) Cravings are seldom reported and hardly ever acted upon by NTR treated addicts.

    7) Patients undergoing NTR therapy find withdrawal symptoms from their drug of choice tolerable at worst and mild to non-existent at best in at least 96% of cases.

    8) NTR works by restoring the original condition of neurotransmitters and following this 10-day process physical addiction is no longer present, psychological cravings are removed as well.

    9) NTR achieves these remarkable results overcoming addiction to opiates but has a similar success rate with addiction to cocaine, benzos, alcohol, crystal meth etc.

    10) Insurance companies in USA are yet to begin to show interest but it may be possible to have 85% of the cost of NTR therapy covered already.

    11) The originator of NTR therapy is Dr William Hitt MD, an American scientist, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate and a pioneer of several alternative medical treatments including ozone therapy for cancer which outperforms conventional cancer treatments. The original research that led to NTR was (co)funded by the Mexican government and World Health Organization.

    12) Despite the fact that NTR significantly or entirely alleviates opiate withdrawal symptoms thus usually making detox virtually painless, despite the fact that NTR removes physical dependence and psychological cravings, restores natural balance and function of neurotransmitters involved in opiate use and dependency and despite achieving a demonstrable long-term recovery success rate of 80% defined as subject's consistent abstinence from his original drug (and probably all others),...

    in spite of all this, NTR therapy received no attention from mainstream national or international media, no peer review, no medical association has mentioned it let alone endorsed it, no governmental or NGO organization expressed (public) interest in NTR, no insurance company acknowledged it yet, no serious study as per established protocol (placebo, double blind etc.) of NTR has been carried out, most doctors specializing in addiction never even heard of it.
    Even the Mexican government and the WHO, which financed research leading to NTR (at least publicly) have nothing to say on

  5. #5
    manrayscamera is offline Senior Member
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    Hi,
    further to the 3rd question correct me if i am wrong some clients return every quarter for top up therapy.I was wondering what the rationale for that is if the 10 day session effects cure and also why not load them up with maintenance aminos orally(not just diet) rather than further iv.How long do you redose people 4 10 days or less?Hope that clarifies thing.

    Cheers
    M'camera

  6. #6
    KB
    KB is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    mr sanders, i posted this in another thread--but i think it needs to be in this thread. i just saw my addictionologist--he has been treating addicts for 18 years and has been using sub for 8 years. he is extremely knowledgeable and he is the dr. that the doctor's are sent to when they have addictions. anyway, i asked him about the mega dose IV amino therapy. he said there is a lot of proof that amino therapy can help many different conditions but they work with oral aminos just fine. he said $12,000 for IV tx is just a big scam--people preying on desperate, sick addicts. he said there is NO proof that by-passing the gut has any effect at all and there is no need to "constantly bath the receptors"--that's BS and when i told him that your clinic puts 500 GRAMS of vit c in 1 bag of fluid--he was amazed--he said that not only is that ridiculous, but could be possibly dangerous. to sum it up--he said these mega-IV dose aminos don't work any better than taking them orally and $12,000 is a big scam. he laughed when i told him "dr." hitt worked out of mexico--he said, "yea, that's where the quacks go"---nuff said???

    robin

  7. #7
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    You must be confusing us with some one else. We don't add any vitamin C to our protocols.

    Your doctor is wrong about the IV aminos and I think he is wrong on how easy it is to taper of suboxone and it appears that most of the people I have read both here and (NoLink) agree with me at least about suboxone.

    Mike
    quote:Originally posted by kellibear

    mr sanders, i posted this in another thread--but i think it needs to be in this thread. i just saw my addictionologist--he has been treating addicts for 18 years and has been using sub for 8 years. he is extremely knowledgeable and he is the dr. that the doctor's are sent to when they have addictions. anyway, i asked him about the mega dose IV amino therapy. he said there is a lot of proof that amino therapy can help many different conditions but they work with oral aminos just fine. he said $12,000 for IV tx is just a big scam--people preying on desperate, sick addicts. he said there is NO proof that by-passing the gut has any effect at all and there is no need to "constantly bath the receptors"--that's BS and when i told him that your clinic puts 500 GRAMS of vit c in 1 bag of fluid--he was amazed--he said that not only is that ridiculous, but could be possibly dangerous. to sum it up--he said these mega-IV dose aminos don't work any better than taking them orally and $12,000 is a big scam. he laughed when i told him "dr." hitt worked out of mexico--he said, "yea, that's where the quacks go"---nuff said???

    robin
    mike

  8. #8
    manrayscamera is offline Senior Member
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    Hi Mr Sanders,
    possibly some miscommunication.The 500gm vit c pertains to the Excel facility in Colorado.It would surprise me if vit c weren't part of Dr Hitt's recipe in anycase.

    Subboxone,subbutex or bupe. whatever you wish to call it is in my opinion by far the best detox drug/therapy available in terms of area under the traum/time curve.The highest COWS i'd expect is 3 and that is transient.Never seen more.The problem with sub.is that the actual pharmacology is not understood leading to excess dosing,maintenance and big jumps and difficult wd's.We've detoxed a heavy heroin user using <1mg day in a week ( check this cite under my name i think i described it in ? feb/march under bupe.)I will be honest and accept i know who will be succesful before they open their mouth.It is sad but true.Manners maketh the man,Kleider machen Leute usw.There endeth my rant.Until the super-opiate comes along bupe will reign just hope people learn how to use it.At least it is validated and on cochrane unlike aminos.As ever i am interested in any therapy that can help as long as it can with the usual popperian scientific scrutiny.Wild claims and testimonials sadly dont.

    Cheers
    M'camera

  9. #9
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    Great and your still on an opiate. In detoxes here in Georgia they rarely give you sub until you have shown significantly higher than 3. We have detoxed heavy heroin users and they are not on any opiate when they finish. I got big news for you. It is a lot easier getting someone off heroin than sub. So you just keep putting them on sub and maybe we will get a chance to really get them clean at some future time

    Mike
    quote:Originally posted by manrayscamera

    Hi Mr Sanders,
    possibly some miscommunication.The 500gm vit c pertains to the Excel facility in Colorado.It would surprise me if vit c weren't part of Dr Hitt's recipe in anycase.

    Subboxone,subbutex or bupe. whatever you wish to call it is in my opinion by far the best detox drug/therapy available in terms of area under the traum/time curve.The highest COWS i'd expect is 3 and that is transient.Never seen more.The problem with sub.is that the actual pharmacology is not understood leading to excess dosing,maintenance and big jumps and difficult wd's.We've detoxed a heavy heroin user using <1mg day in a week ( check this cite under my name i think i described it in ? feb/march under bupe.)I will be honest and accept i know who will be succesful before they open their mouth.It is sad but true.Manners maketh the man,Kleider machen Leute usw.There endeth my rant.Until the super-opiate comes along bupe will reign just hope people learn how to use it.At least it is validated and on cochrane unlike aminos.As ever i am interested in any therapy that can help as long as it can with the usual popperian scientific scrutiny.Wild claims and testimonials sadly dont.

    Cheers
    M'camera
    mike

  10. #10
    freakedout's Avatar
    freakedout is offline Moderator
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    quote:Originally posted by sandersw

    Great and your still on an opiate. In detoxes here in Georgia they rarely give you sub until you have shown significantly higher than 3. We have detoxed heavy heroin users and they are not on any opiate when they finish. I got big news for you. It is a lot easier getting someone off heroin than sub. So you just keep putting them on sub and maybe we will get a chance to really get them clean at some future time

    Mike
    quote:Originally posted by manrayscamera

    Hi Mr Sanders,
    possibly some miscommunication.The 500gm vit c pertains to the Excel facility in Colorado.It would surprise me if vit c weren't part of Dr Hitt's recipe in anycase.

    Subboxone,subbutex or bupe. whatever you wish to call it is in my opinion by far the best detox drug/therapy available in terms of area under the traum/time curve.The highest COWS i'd expect is 3 and that is transient.Never seen more.The problem with sub.is that the actual pharmacology is not understood leading to excess dosing,maintenance and big jumps and difficult wd's.We've detoxed a heavy heroin user using <1mg day in a week ( check this cite under my name i think i described it in ? feb/march under bupe.)I will be honest and accept i know who will be succesful before they open their mouth.It is sad but true.Manners maketh the man,Kleider machen Leute usw.There endeth my rant.Until the super-opiate comes along bupe will reign just hope people learn how to use it.At least it is validated and on cochrane unlike aminos.As ever i am interested in any therapy that can help as long as it can with the usual popperian scientific scrutiny.Wild claims and testimonials sadly dont.

    Cheers
    M'camera
    mike

    Mr. Sanders,

    I totally agree with your sentiments about Sub. The thing is, if your purpose is/was to promote your treatment, you are having the opposite effect. I am pretty open minded and believe the "natural" approach to health care is often better than the chemical/drug model we have here in the States. However, your toe-tapping around direct questions folks are asking you is not helping your credibility in promoting your treatment. IMO, "excelleration" and "bathing receptors" is a little beyond definable reason. If you believe, you believe as is your right. Promoting something unproven, with only anectdotal stories to back it up, to desperate sick people is simply wrong. I could use the word unethical but hopefully your intentions are not just profit motivated. (As they appear to be.)


    freak

    PS-I think the quote I keep in my signature line is particularly relevant here.


    "The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe something because one wishes it to be so."
    ~Louis Pasteur

  11. #11
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    Freak,

    I had a patient go through treatment 7 months ago who was addicted to Ultram and then put on suboxone. He came to Execucare to get off suboxone. He recently told me about this forum and didn't understand why after being here for months knew nothing about this approach. I came on the forum and realized that that there was a current patient that was coming down to Atlanta who is now off of suboxone. So I have tried to answer questions. I have sent them the only study we have done so far but after reading many of the post I will tell you I have provided a whole lot more data than most of these post would be able to provide. So most of our data is anecdotal. It seems to me that most of the experience and advice on this forum is anecdotal.

    The great thing about our method is it can help anyone addicted to any combination of drugs into an abstinence based recovery without the fear of worsening their situation. My only motive was to build awareness. If you would like me to go away just say so and I will leave. If there are questions that you think I haven't answered. I will be happy to try

    Thanks for your time

    Mike [quote]quote:Originally posted by freakedout

    quote:Originally posted by sandersw

    Great and your still on an opiate. In detoxes here in Georgia they rarely give you sub until you have shown significantly higher than 3. We have detoxed heavy heroin users and they are not on any opiate when they finish. I got big news for you. It is a lot easier getting someone off heroin than sub. So you just keep putting them on sub and maybe we will get a chance to really get them clean at some future time

    Mike
    quote:Originally posted by manrayscamera

    Hi Mr Sanders,
    possibly some miscommunication.The 500gm vit c pertains to the Excel facility in Colorado.It would surprise me if vit c weren't part of Dr Hitt's recipe in anycase.

    Subboxone,subbutex or bupe. whatever you wish to call it is in my opinion by far the best detox drug/therapy available in terms of area under the traum/time curve.The highest COWS i'd expect is 3 and that is transient.Never seen more.The problem with sub.is that the actual pharmacology is not understood leading to excess dosing,maintenance and big jumps and difficult wd's.We've detoxed a heavy heroin user using <1mg day in a week ( check this cite under my name i think i described it in ? feb/march under bupe.)I will be honest and accept i know who will be succesful before they open their mouth.It is sad but true.Manners maketh the man,Kleider machen Leute usw.There endeth my rant.Until the super-opiate comes along bupe will reign just hope people learn how to use it.At least it is validated and on cochrane unlike aminos.As ever i am interested in any therapy that can help as long as it can with the usual popperian scientific scrutiny.Wild claims and testimonials sadly dont.

    Cheers
    M'camera
    mike

    Mr. Sanders,

    I totally agree with your sentiments about Sub. The thing is, if your purpose is/was to promote your treatment, you are having the opposite effect. I am pretty open minded and believe the "natural" approach to health care is often better than the chemical/drug model we have here in the States. However, your toe-tapping around direct questions folks are asking you is not helping your credibility in promoting your treatment. IMO, "excelleration" and "bathing receptors" is a little beyond definable reason. If you believe, you believe as is your right. Promoting something unproven, with only anectdotal stories

  12. #12
    arlenewla is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by sandersw

    The great thing about our method is it can help anyone addicted to any combination of drugs into an abstinence based recovery without the fear of worsening their situation. My only motive was to build awareness. If you would like me to go away just say so and I will leave.
    Mike...I am just member on this site. One member who would very much hope that you don't go away.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
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