It is a good thing Ebbie, Bill and Bob didnt go by all these rules or we would all still be sick and suffering looking for a solution. I mean people grow with time for sure, but if you have throughly worked the steps in 90 days and had that spirtual experience there is no reason you cannot go out and take someone else through the process. A sponsor takes you through the steps....they arent your therapist, so personally I cant see what their life experience and anything else has to do with. Their experience with the steps and the path to a spirtual experience are all that mattter..The ones going out are the ones who are not working the steps, not doing 10 11 12. Especially not doing 12...So if you have a person with 2 years going out they are not throughly working the steps and i do not want them, same as someone with 90 days....my point is this someone who worked and works the steps and is spirtualy fit can be sponsor anytime, i do not care if they have 30 days! It is not like we have the luxury to sit around and wait. The cemeteries are full of people who could have worked steps with a 90 day wonder who is eager to get out there and do the work, while the guy with 5 years is too busy patting himself on the back eating cake and collecting medallions to give a hoot! Bottom line good sponsrship can come from anyone who has worked the steps and is spirtualy fit and maintaning their program on a daily basis.

If time were only part of the equation
Then you could draw the bound'ries of our cage
You wouldn't pile another stone upon me
And I'd be happy just to watch you age

Patrick T.
God i offer myself to thee- to build with me and do with me as thou wilt.

I guess my program isn't as strong as some.

I'm grateful that I did not have the arrogance to believe I had this knocked at 6 months nor today at 5+1/2 years. Conscious contact with G-d not withstanding.

I live in the now...the today. Year 2 was a mother-f*cker as was year 4. And that's my truth. Life shows up. Pink clouds long gone with the wind.

Ebbie & Bill had no choices regarding sponsorship and time back in the day. And while sponsors aren't therapists, they are life coaches. Life coaching in how to live well and sober. So, I would ask myself the question before I entrusted my life to someone, "just how long are you living happy, joyous & free?"

It wouldn't have occurred to me at under 1 year to have sponsees. I had nothing to offer them other than meaningless, high sounding words. Words I hadn't lived. I didn't have the slightest clue as to what the trudge was about.

I'm guessing that my spiritual void is directly proportional to my tolerance level. Since my tolerance level was gigantic, that's how much G-d it takes to fill it up. If I make the analogy to a gas station, then do I do a drive by and put 1/4 of tank in to set off on a 300 mile road trip, put others in the car with me and say let's go? Seems to me that the car requires ongoing maintenance and gas in that tank so it doesn't strand me and the other passengers in my car in the desert. Experience tells me to fill up that tank.

I'm a member of the S.A.S.T.O crew and not the most spiritual banana in the bunch. I still sit up front at meetings, speak at meetings, go into detoxes and do panels and take women through the Book. I'm there for them 24/7. My phone is never off. Not my right. I do a renewed 4/5th each year on Yom Kippur. It dove tails nicely for me. I have developed a proven track record of endurance and most importantly, I am congruent. Congruent for multiple years.

I'm not lofty with a bunch of etheral words. Looking good on paper or sounding good. Anyone can sound good when they've had an "aaha moment" under a year. How do they act when not in the aaha moment? My recovery is based on actions and doing the deal. Growth takes more than a second.

Arlene
Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
<center>THIS TOO SHALL PASS</center>

I will cross those bridges when they come, but i know if i remain spirtualy fit and in the place i am now by doing what i am doing now it will be a breeze...my days of self reliance are history so my fears are greatly dissipated....if they could clone yu alrlene there would be no need for my 160 day wonder self to be out helping folks....but most are not as active as yourself...many get complacent..furthermore my book tells me what to do and i listen, it has not failed me yet.....

Patrick T.
God i offer myself to thee- to build with me and do with me as thou wilt.

I agree with you 100%. It is great that people want to help out others in early recovery but many tend to want to help out others and they do not stay focused on themselves and their program. They can walk the walk but not talk the talk.

Hey people can do as they please but for me I would never consider trying to offer my advice in early recovery. The days will get very hard at times and the triggers will be waiting for you, then and only then will you know if you have a solid program.

Tim

Day by Day is the only way....

Our experiences are different....our past is our greatest asset to help others.

Other women possess a wealth of experience to offer women that is vastly different than mine. I wasn't on maintenance drugs for years. I've been through many detoxes. I've never lost my family. I've never spent time in prison. I've stayed clean through the loss of a child. I've had 8 years of continuous clean time that has taught me how NOT to work a program. the consequences of our addictions could be worlds apart....but hopefully....the solution remains the same.

I follow directions from my sponsor. Arrogance to me....would be to NOT listen. When he says I'm ready for this or that....well, I do as I'm told. So far....its worked out pretty darn well.

and now...I'm takin my son to the beach. another gift of my recovery. the ability to be present...to enjoy life...to stop livin in my own head.

cheers. have a great day.

"Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints" - (second precept of Zen Buddhist tradition) "To me, this is the most essential practice of peace." - Thich Nhat Hanh

I would agree Tim.

I believe there's a big difference between helping another addict/alcoholic as opposed to being a sponsor.

There is no question that someone in early recovery can be of service. But sponsorship? That's a whole 'nother tune.

The premise of a long-term treatment facility is that it takes time for the addict/alcoholic to get back on their feet. To learn new responses. To develop and grow. The fog does not lift in 28 days. The ability for retention is not there....by a long shot.

I can't tell you the number of residents I've seen and heard who have proclaimed after 120 days "I've GOT it!" Yeah...right. And just what is it that you've GOT? Call my cynical...call me pragmatic.

Would I ask them to sponsor me because they thought they could or their sponsor said they should? Not on a bet. That bet being my life. I'm not looking for a roll of the dice here. I'm looking for Good Orderly Direction and tell me how orderly that direction is coming from a newbie with 6 months under their belt? That belt is rather sparse.

Hell...if this program were so "easy", then everyone would be clean & sober with multiple years. There would be a line out the door of sponsors with long-term sobriety waiting for that newbie. Instead, we all know its the other way around.

And what of the issue of grand-sponsors? If I sponsor a woman at the 6 month mark, does that mean my grand-sponsor has the whopping amount of 9 months? Uh, uh.

New is new. Walk the talk...and do it from a time. Before I f*ck with someone else's sobriety, I better be damn sure of what I'm doing. The process of sponsorship ain't all about me, now is it?

That being said, I'd love to hear from other members who have worked all 12 steps, sponsor and have more than a year.

Arlene
Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
<center>THIS TOO SHALL PASS</center>

that is your experience....your opinion. fantastic. It is not law, nor is mine. you wouldn't want me for a sponsor....fantastic, i get it. Gratefully, God has put other women in my path for a reason.

Again, my experience is different. What you look for in a sponsor....obviously different than what I (and others) look for in a sponsor....and, have gratefully received.

all fantastic stuff. truly a blessing.

We agree to disagree on this, Janice.

You have chosen to personalize this, my dear. This was not what it was about for me.

So, let me ask you a question based on the personal. When you were clean for 8 years, did you work the Steps? And can you tell me exactly what your new clean date is? And what is the length of time of the women you are sponsoring?

As I've said before, I'm hard-wired for the tangible now a'days.

Arlene
Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
<center>THIS TOO SHALL PASS</center>

this ain't about me. Its about a program of recovery that I respect and hold dear. Honestly, I don't take things personally. Another gift of recovery, I react differently to life today.

I would be happy to tell you my clean date...but not in this context. I have mentioned my clean date many times previously. its no secret. I don't use it to justify what I do or don't do.
the clean time of the women I sponsor...that's for them to tell you. some have more time than me...some less.

I am content with my choices and the path that God has placed me on. I am upfront and honest with every woman in my life. They know where I am currently, and, where I've been. I've learned how to stay sober...and how NOT to stay sober in AA. been there...done it. I've lived through hell in sobriety, and stayed clean. I've lived in untreated alcoholism, and relapsed. I have worked all 12 steps as outlined in the Book and am currently in Traditions work, something new to me.

I am not here to convince you...or anyone...that my path, my experience, my journey...should be yours. I respect the journey of others and their opinions. My experience is mine alone. My journey and my truth....between me and my God. I've agreed to disagree regarding this issue months ago. I still do.

as my sponsor says....The best defense is usually no defense. I've committed no crime nor violated any tradition. nothing to defend here. And, I believe...I have nothing more to add on the subject.

Godspeed.
much respect
Janice

At my home group, as well as a few other meetings I attend ...... the chairperson states that "anyone who has worked steps thoroughly and honestly with a sponsor and continues to walk in the world of the Spirit today .... please raise your hand. Please see these people if you're looking for a recovered alcoholic to be a sponsor"

I believe we need to get back to this ...... MY OPINION ONLY


More God, less self ... the freer we are

Well if Janice was your sponsor i think your grand sponsor would have what 20 years on the 30th janice? Tim the fact that you used the term triggers just indicates that you don't know where we are coming from on this one. If you have to worry about triggers you are not recovered. Is their any doubt in either of your heads that if you continue to do what you are doing now and do not faulter that using or drinking is not an option at all no matter what? i know i could go back to using if i get lazy and complacent. I also know that if I do what i am doing now and stay spirtualy fit none of the troubles you speak of that i am sure to face will take me out. again it is not about offering advice...it is about taking someone through the steps...would i want someone with 160 days being my drug counselor and therapist, no, my sponsor yes. I have scene some of the pathetic excuses people call sponorship and frankly i think someone with 2 days would better suited then some of these folks....again not directed at you guys....And those folks with 120 days that got it, maybe they did get that spirtual experience and that is all they need to remain sober...they don't have to have the bank account, the job back all that jazz, but if they have their spirtual experience then they do have it and so long as they maintain it and give it away they will keep it....This program HAD a 75% sucess rate prior to all these changes...bottom line, live by the book die by the book..no clean time specfied in the book!

Patrick T.
God i offer myself to thee- to build with me and do with me as thou wilt.

Arlene - This G-d that you so often speak of .... is s/he/it tangible?

I guess its all about schools of thought, and how different areas do things. In my area, most sponsorship chains keep someone on the 6th step for about a year. I don't understand how you could be entirely ready to have God remove defects of character when not only did you just become aware of them, but you haven't felt sufficient pain from them. Like Arlene was saying, lofty words and ideals are all nice and well, but don't tell, show me. Many of us have lived this way our whole lives, its about commitment to something new, we don't change overnight. Good things come to those who wait, I just don't see the point of rushing through the steps. Peace

Free since 1/28/08

Oh brother.

I'm just no match for you or Janice, Tom. Simple girl here who has done the next right thing for several years now. That's the tangibility of G-d working in my life starting in 2002 and still on July 10th, 2008.

I dunno'....I asked Janice a simple, straight forward question in the context of this thread and instead, got a tome on how to build an Ark. The circular nature is interesting. Got me. You guys are more evolved than I am.

I gott'a go back to work...and do the next right thing...one more time...cause I have an employer who expects a day's work for a day's wages.

Arlene
Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
<center>THIS TOO SHALL PASS</center>

Yeah - Like death, relapse, jail, detox, institutions, loss of loved ones ........ those sound like some great things to me. Lived all of these, all set with that today. This isn't Heinz ketchup we're dealing with Rip .... this is a life of a fellow addict/alcoholic, period.

Why wait to work steps?? I understand a week or two to physically detox first ..... but then why not? Why not save your life then? I get so confused when I hear this type of thing in the rooms ..... if one is willing and ready to get honest with themselves ..... wait why again? I challenge this message everyday ...... because this message takes lives, it doesn't save them.

I would by no means encourage anyone to RUSH this work ...... my experience is to be thorough and as honest as possible ..... and however long it takes is how long it takes. But waiting to start just makes zero sense in my mind..... if the person is ready to do the work.