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  1. #1
    Billy2332 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Methadone to Subutex

    Hi all.

    Its been a long haul. But I'll keep it short. IV heroin user since i was 17, got on methadone when i was 21.... I've been on methadone on and off (btw heroin and methadone) for the last 5 years. I was never really ready to stop i guess.

    In 2008, I had had enough of the methadone clinic and I found a doctor to write me some Suboxone scripts. I tapered to 45 mgs, shot dope for a few days, stayed sick for another 2 days, took 8 mgs of suboxone and had HELL on earth for another 36 hours. Last dose of meth was monday, first dose of suboxone on saturday. THAT all lasted about 3 months, before I was back on dope, back into detox. Walked out of detox, got high, and limped back into the methadone clinic.

    Since 08, I've been slowly coming down on my methadone dose. I went 5 mgs a month, from 100 to 10mgs. No real trouble.

    So heres my current situation. I got 200 mgs of methadone last month. A vacation of sorts (little did they know i was MOVING AWAY never to return.) SO here I sit, in a new city, where i know noone, and nothing. I tapered myself to 5 mgs, and a few days ago tried to half that, but it wasnt cutting it so last night I took another 2.5.

    I have 5 mgs left, and a bottle of 90 2mg SUBUTEX.

    The question - Am I going to have such a ***** of a time between my last dose of meth, and whenever i decide to *try* taking some subutex? I've been feeling pretty crappy as it is for almost 2 weeks, as the minescule amounts of methadone I've been taking have not been holding me. But I've been rigid in my one a day dose taper.

    Its been almost 24 hours since my last 2.5 mgs and I'm wondering when you think it would be "safe" to try taking 2 mgs of Subutex?

    Short story, long, I know..... Thanks to any replies. I have a HUGE gig on Friday night and I don't want to be sick as a dog...

  2. #2
    freakedout's Avatar
    freakedout is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    I think you already know this, but going from MMT to Sub is not going to help you get OFF of opiates. The best result is that you continue your opiate addiction on Sub instead of Methadone. I have been through this personally, 7.5 yrs on MMT and then 1.5 years on Sub. Sub is harder to taper than Methadone and has a similar duration of withdrawals.

    If you do switch, I would suggest waiting until you are in full blown withdrawals and take ONLY 2mg. I went from 10mg of Methadone to 2mg of Sub painlessly. The problem is if you take too much (like 8mg) or take it too soon, before withdrawals. I waited 6 1/2 days from my last Methadone dose to my first Suboxone dose. It took THAT long before I felt any withdrawals.

    Too much or too soon leads to a situation called "precipitated withdrawals" which makes regular withdrawals seem like a day at the amusement park. (I tried too soon from 23mg of Methadone and spent 2 days in hell.)

    Your best bet is to find a physician to prescribe Methadone or find a cooperative klinik to continue the Methadone taper. Otherwise you run the risk of being addicted to Sub or jumping back and forth between maintenance dope (Methadone & Sub) and street dope like heroin. No easy or quick answer.

    Best wishes,

    freak

    PS-The best bet is a real detox center but very few are equipped to deal with Methadone or Sub withdrawals and they are very expensive unless you find a government or privately funded one which are going the way of the Dodo bird in this economy.
    "The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe something because one wishes it to be so."
    ~Louis Pasteur

  3. #3
    Billy2332 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    Yeah, you're right, that this isn't a permanent fix.
    My goal is to be opiate free one day, but im taking it one thing at a time.

    If i can stay in the 2 mg range on sub, i have almost 3 months worth of pills, and thats enough time to find a doc who will make a plan with me to maintain and taper.

    I just want to be free of the clinic visits, the counselors, the OTHER PATIENTS. I mean, I'm a whole different person now, and I want to distance myself from the junkie community as much as possible.

    I remember how much better i felt after the suboxone started working the last time I made this switch, I guess I was just curious as to whether the time I have to wait would be less since my meth dose has been so much lower for so long now. Getting on methadone, while allowing me to change my life, has also lead to relapse (getting to the clinic too late, etc...) and chained me to the city i lived in. I like that i can go on tour with a bottle of subutex and be free, not high, and not sick.

    Anyhow, thanks for the advice, appreciate it.

  4. #4
    Rulebrkr is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    I skipped my 15 mg dose of md the morning of my sub doc appt and he inducted me right there in his office on 4 mg. It was nothing and I felt absolutely awesome when I left. I had waited about 30 hours since my last md dose. I was fine.

  5. #5
    Jayjess is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    Can I use methadone taper to get off subs

  6. #6
    Bonita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    reading J post asking if one can use meth to get off sub might just give you a clear picture.

    I did the meth to sub and suffered just like you did. My sub quack told me to take half my meth dose the night before I arrived at his office. I cant tell you how horrible I felt after sucking on 40mg of sub. Yet I did continue.

    I was only on sub for about six mo but I can share without a doubt that getting off that nasty sub was so hard. I suffered so long after. I was able to stay clean for 8 or so months after sub but I nearly killed myself. I felt horrible even after eight full months. Sub is no joke, not harm reduction by no means. I now work with addicts and prefer to work with someone with a methadone habit then sub habit any day. The folks I help get off the sub suffer so much longer.

    Going from one dope to another took many yrs away from me. Trying to find that opiate that would be easier to walk away from got me deeper and deeper in BIG CHIT.

    I have not wean off meth but have seen many be successful with it. My vote is stay away from sub. You WILL regret it one day. I know there are a few that sing it praises, say how they slowly weaned off after they got their life together. I have to say that a few of these folks I don't believe.
    I think they say the same thing over and over in public but behind close doors show the truth. Looking for yet another miracle to help them or as they claim to help another. So... be careful who you listen too. Sub is very addictive and I believe with all my heart makes changes in the brain that may not ever return to baseline.

    I know your gonna do what your gonna do... at least you make the choice knowing the truth. Then you cant blame anyone but yourself later. Suboxone or subutex is just another, stronger dope that our government approves, makes big bucks for the pharms and the MDs that script this nasty crap.
    If your goal is to maintain on dope I feel the lesser of the two evil is methadone. IF you want to get clean then your at the right place to get a lot of sound advice to help you thru to the end. I know a few who weaned off meth and didnt suffer no more then loosing sleep for a while.

    Harm reduction mean a lot to me. Sub I do not see as harm reduction at all.
    omission is not honesty, only a different way of lying.

  7. #7
    JamesF is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    I would never encourage anyone to use sub/meth for maintenace, as I think you're trading one problem for another. However, I know several people who have used it very successfully for a short-term detox (3 weeks or less). So...I'm not sure it's accurate to write it off so completely.

    As you say yourself, your Doctor was a quack. I mean using a long-acting opioid the night before Sub induction...good grief! And no offense, but the smallest amount of research of your part could have avoided that, so you have to take a little hit on that one.

    Again, I share your negative view of Opiate Replacement Therapy. Just think we should give credit where it's due to what can be a useful tool under the right circumstances.

    By the way, the original poster had a successful switch from meth to sub. He didn't suffer.

  8. #8
    peacenik is offline Administrator
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    However, I know several people who have used it very successfully for a short-term detox
    ............... Just think we should give credit where it's due to what can be a useful tool
    I think I just have a different point of view on this James. I wouldn't ever give "credit" to a drug. Credit goes to the guy who quit taking the drug :)

    Dave

  9. #9
    Bonita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    James....that's not what I call success. Maybe read the thread again?
    And as far as responsibility ....it's all on me. All my choices are on me. I have read a few have success with sub, never fro methadone to sub though, unless you see maintaining as success. I don't.
    omission is not honesty, only a different way of lying.

  10. #10
    JamesF is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    As I stated in my post Bonita, I am VERY much against maintenance. I think it's a prison, not to mention a huge money maker for a lot of people. Assisting someone through acute withdrawal, so they can at least begin the long journey of recovery, has value to me. I respect that you may not agree. Lastly, I don't really know anything about going from methadone to sub, I was just reiterating what the poster said. Since he holds the medical license, I believe your Doctor was to blame for your bad experience. I have much respect, I was just pulling your chain a little.

    Peacenik, I stand corrected. I couldn't possibly agree more.

  11. #11
    creativeworker is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    i was hooked on oxy for 3 years, the heroin for 4 years, then methadone for 4 years. methadone got me off the streets but just gave me a legal high. i finally got so sick of it and determined to quit. i was on 150 mgs. heres how i did it: i found an unconventional addiction treament doctor that was willing to put me ox oxycodone for 7 days in order to switch me from methadone to subs. he did this only because he cant stand what methadone does to people. at the end of June i tapered from 150mgs to 70 mgs of methadone over course of 8 days. then i was put on 240mg/day of IR oxycodone for 7 days. then i went 16 hours cold turkey and started taking suboxone. this was the worst part. but i did it. once on subs i started at 16mg/day and tapered down to 2mg a day by dropping 2mg per week. once i got to 2mg/day i started dropping .5mg/day until i got down to .5/mg. then i dropped to .25mg and then stopped. that was 30 days ago. it has been a 6 month process but i am clean and sober. i have felt slight withdrawals then entire time but tthey have been mild; mostly just slight lack of energy, resltess legs, sneezing, and some trouble sleeping. again, due to my slow taper everything had been mild. i will say, methadone was never a real taper program for me and anything you can do to get off i would recommend. i have heard of people successfully tapering off methadone but never met anyone personally. coming off of subs was much easier for me than any taper i tried on meathadone. good luck!!

  12. #12
    arlenewla is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Methadone to Subutex

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonita View Post
    If your goal is to maintain on dope I feel the lesser of the two evil is methadone. IF you want to get clean then your at the right place to get a lot of sound advice to help you thru to the end. I know a few who weaned off meth and didnt suffer no more then loosing sleep for a while.

    Harm reduction mean a lot to me. Sub I do not see as harm reduction at all.
    I respectfully disagree with Bonita when she says Methadone is the lesser of two evils.

    While I have never had the Sub experience, I am familiar with Methadone....all too familiar. For this junkie, Methadone is an outright evil/vicious/toxic drug. Putting aside for a sec the impact of methadone on your body, more importantly its a soul stealer. I became a charter member of the walking dead.

    I, like Bonita, believe in harm reduction but my take is slightly different. Substitution is not, IMO, harm reduction. I would suggest that you not switch from one to the other, but instead leave the dance with the drug that brung you. Is it easy? Nope. Can it be done? Absolutely!

    You're in the right place for help....with those of us sharing our experience, strength and most of all, hope. Ar
    A life without purpose is a life without meaning
    12/25/02

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