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Yep.. Sub is addictive!

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by spring, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. spring

    spring Administrator

    The author moved a certain thread outa here for personal reasons. But there was a lot of good stuff in the thread so I am bringing the replies back minus the original post.....
     
  2. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by greeneyez
    When i was first put on bupe, I was told the exact same thing by the center for CPR in Florida. it is not true of course, but this is what Dr's are telling there pt's.

    I was told bupe was not addicitve and that was a lie.

    But I would advise to do some research and learn the truth.
    I know this probley does not help much, but it was my experince.
    Sheri
     
  3. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by Allgood
    Hi.
    I find our world to have THE most knowledgeable (sp?) bunch of folks of any place on the net. I'm a bit biased, but i truly believe this.

    Hi GE. Hope you two are well . . .
    Tom
     
  4. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by sailnfla

    I also thought it was the magic bullet after switching a 4 year MMT bout to subs. I started on 32mgs and after about three days I started researching and found this site. I went straight down to 8mgs (4mg. 2X a day) without one problem other than feeling better. My doc wanted me on bup for a year saying the same bull your friend (along with about 90% of us here) was handed. Most of us know MMT and bup can be can be a harder detox but only taking almost all other opiates and being told to stay on that long is malpractice to me. If she really wants to detox she best learn the facts and drop her dose now. I would hate to think were I’d be if it hadn’t been for B4P, and many others here.
    Good luck, it’s hard to get through to some that think their doc’s word is the gospel.
    sailnfla
    the BOSS
     
  5. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by santeeno

    Good point! Did you read my post about my friend? Same thing. Over 8 months now on sub and she says it will be for life for her. I have known her over 6years and she is not the same person. Isolating, major life changes, even divorce, boob job, just real outa character stuff for her. Quit church, meetings etc. Saw her though, yesterday and she says she is majorly depressed ALL THE TIME NOW. I feel so bad for her and told her about you guys and this site. Tried to explain "less is more" and the whole receptor/down regulating thing (read that doctor's post too...asked him a question and never got a reply) I asked him if OBTdoc meant Our Best Thinking? Ha! told him it was a joke. Time will tell and I guess if one can afford it and is content, who am I to say "don't do it". Like I learned here, sub effects us all differently. The good news for my friend is, I think, if she thought it would keep her happy and feeling normal she knows that is not the case now. I am going to continue to press on and encourage her to taper down at least! Someone popped another site logo into a post a couple days ago but I did not register. They SAID they were loooking for sub supporters for opies. Still kinda paranoid myself about web solicitors of ANY kind. You just never know who is behind it. Good to "hear" from you Ashe! santeeno

    oh and P.S. I am NOT a sub expert!!! Keep that in mind. All i have is my own experience and what I have learned here and read elsewhere. eeny teeny santeeno
     
  6. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by gretchens4
    Hello,
    I am hardly a sub expert, but I have noticed the attitude you're talking about. Until I found this site, everyone, including one friend, and my doctor talked about what a miracle sub is. When I told my doctor about what I had learned here (about how addictive sub is etc.) he said he is not seeing that in his practice. He does say it's addictive, but much easier to get off of than the other opiates. It's just interesting that I had only heard the positive side of sub until I found the info here. Thanks to everyone for being so knowledgeable.
    Gretchen
     
  7. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by zech
    i don't know the scientific chemistry behind sub and i'm not an expert, but i can only give you my personal experience of my by ,zech. the personality changes are dramatic - and if, they are positive changes, maybe there is something to be said about sub, but all the changes have been disastrously negative. I have not spoken to zech's doc about this, 'cos if i do, i will give him a piece of my mind about keeping him on sub. I am constantly pushing zech to see another psychiatrist to help him quit sub, cos i have zero, no, negative faith in this doc of his. And i'm not going to rest until something gets done.

    I spoke to an addiction counsellor recently about this and he admitted that a lot of docs and even the pharmacological companies are denying the existence of these behaviour-altering side effects and highly addictive nature of sub.

    give your friend time. sometimes the side effects don't take root until after 1 year, and when they do, they appear overnight and grip you by the throat. maybe she will find out soon enough how badly this will affect her.

    HOWEVER, there is one question I have not had anyone answer, and perhaps one that I dare not ask myself: WILL GOING OFF SUB RESULT IN THE PERSON REVERTING TO MORE ABUSIVE DRUGS, LIKE HEROIN?

    i try not to look too far beyond, and just one day at a time. but it will be good if there's someone who has had the experience answer this question.[/quote]
     
  8. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by Bup4pain
    Seems a few people are forgetting the Basics on bupe. Remember any receptor an opiate binds to WILL UP-Regulate! I had posted this before but can't find it so here it is again.

    At the receptors:

    Bupe has a high affinity at all 4 major opioid receptors (mu, delta, kappa,
    and ORL1) (Miller et al., 2001, (1))

    Order of affinity (How much attraction to and how tightly it binds to each
    receptor):

    mu > kappa > delta > ORL1 (Miller et al., 2001)

    (delta has about 30 fold less affinity than mu) (Negus et al., 2002)

    Bupe is a partial agonist at mu, delta, and ORL1. It is a full and potent
    antagonist at kappa*. (Miller et al., 2001) It's efficacy at the receptors
    is related to dose. The higher the dose, the less efficacious it works, (1)
    until it reaches a dose (~32mg SL) where increasing it any more would make
    it work less efficacious, although more data is necessary. (See Bupe and
    Dose)

    Order of efficacy (how strong it works as an agonist):

    ORL1 (34%) > mu > delta (Miller et al., 2001,)

    The fact that it is efficient at ORL1 is very significant; as I don't think
    any other traditional opioids can stimulate ORL1 (this definitely includes
    morphine and heroin.) Unfortunately it has a very low affinity for it, which
    would require large doses to create a significant effect there. Fairly large
    doses have been attempted in limited studies with no interesting results,
    other than the apparent reversal of agonist effects. ( ) I Believe ORL1 has
    been shown to have similar effects to mu. Describing ORL1 is beyond the
    scope of this document and my knowledge.

    * There is a lot of conflicting studies in regards to kappa. Some say that it
    does indeed produce kappa agonism. This isn't the case, I'm fairly positive
    of it, but I'd like to know why this is. It possibly has something to do
    with in vitro testing, however the in vitro testing summary (Miller et al.,
    2001) has determined bupe to be a kappa antagonist. I look forward to
    finding further information on this, as always, for the next version...

    Bupe has an extremely long half-life at the receptors. It takes about a
    month for the drug to be completely removed from your system.

    Finally, Buprenorphine has a major active metabolite, norbuprenorphine,
    which has activity at the receptors. See metabolism for more information.

    General Pharmacological Information:

    Bupe has a slow onset of action, with peak effects taking place in
    approximately 100 minutes. (Suboxone full prescribing information.) The peak
    effects for methadone take place in approximately 120 minutes (VERIFY.)

    Bupe readily crosses the blood brain barrier, and is highly lipophilic.

    Bupe is about 10x more potent IM than PO (oral), which is about the same
    ratio as morphine. You CAN eat bupe, although there is no reason to do so.

    Sublingual absorption varies greatly, and can be anywhere from 25%-75%. ( )
    The same percentages can be applied to an IM/SL potency comparison. However,
    in most people, their personal variation from one dose to another is low.
    (Subutex full prescribing information)

    A comparison of bupe to 'done for respiratory effects found that bupe had a
    much higher incidence of respiratory depression *not* requiring medical
    intervention. Bupe can cause respiratory depression, but *very* rarely
    anything resembling life threatening. Both drugs decreased 02 saturation to
    the same degree. The chances of severe respiratory depression are increased
    via the injection route. (Suboxone full prescribing information)

    Bupe is a very safe drug for an opioid. Overdose is very difficult, even for
    opiate naive individuals. (Subutex full prescribing information)

    See "Bupe and Dose" for further information on this topic.

    Buprenorphine is approximately 96% plasma bound, primary to alpha and beta
    globulin (Subutex full prescribing information)

    Bupe has a mean half-l
     
  9. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by Lightseeker
    This subject has been on my mind lately. Right now, I am clear with my desire and intention to work through Bupe detox and withdrawals. Before, when I accomplished "cold turkey", I was also clear with my mission. At that time, AND RIGHT NOW, I have no craving or desire for opiods...I'm in a fight and I'm gonna win... BUT, the real truth teller in my overall determination and intention will occur WHEN I'M FULLY RECOVERED AGAIN. That period (which may be the rest of my life) will be the hardest...a constant guard has to be held and monitored closely. The addiction devil is as close to me as this keyboard, even closer. That's my bottom line - there is no magic formula once you've pickled your brain. You just can't turn it back into an innocent cucumber. HOWEVER, I'm no expert...just another addict.
     
  10. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by spring
    I consider myself an expert on Suboxone even tho it's my own personal expertise because of my own personal experiences with it.


    Bottom line....

    This May it will be 2 years on Sub. I am depressed, angry, and feeling like I just wasted 2 years of my life. Now I am going to have to face that loooong trip back to abstinence.

    "IF" I had used it for detox only, I would have been off it in a matter of days or a few weeks at the most and would have all this clean time adding up.

    The last time I got clean, I spent a grand total of 3 weeks detoxing. The first week was the usual physical stuff. The last 2 weeks of that were not severe. That was the time my body spent readjusting to the clean life. After those 3 weeks, life just kept getting better and better. I managed to rack up several 24 hours until 3 years passed before I knew it.

    Just before I hit my 4th year clean, I relapsed. I spent the next several months trying to pull myself out of it by using homemade detoxes of all sorts. It was at the tail end of that period when Suboxone was newly approved in the US for treating heroin addiction. I jumped on it. It was like a dream come true. I convinced myself (and others) that this drug was sent to us addicts by God Himself.

    Okay, I admit it WAS a good thing. It STILL IS a good thing. It is a miracle med for detoxing. No more misery when trying to get clean.

    But any longer than a few weeks and a person may as well be on methadone maintance. At least there is somewhat of a buzz with meth and you're not ingesting daily doses of Naloxone. I dont care what anybody says....there is something wrong with taking Naloxone on a daily basis for a long period of time. (See my thread).http://www.heroin-detox.com/urod-rapid-opiate-detox-naltrexone/14-naloxone-safe-even-necessary.html

    I am convinced that it is the Naloxone that gives me this perpetual headache. Anyone get these headaches on Subutex? I bet not.

    Now I have NOT just 3 weeks of detox hell to look forward to but more like 3 months(?) or more to get this Suboxone out of my system and get my brain back to it's semi-normal state. I am not looking forward to this. Not at all. Which is why I keep putting it off. Even tho I am down to a minute dose, I still am not "clean". Not anywhere near clean.

    For those of you who think Sub maintanence is the answer.....you may want to do a bit more research and read about the experiences of others who have been on it long term and tried to get off and what they went thru.

    For those of you who plan to be on it for life.....I personally have an uneasy feeling about the long term consequences that Sub will have on your body and brain. Take my words for what their worth....
     
  11. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by Bup4pain
    Spring... Ooooooooooo gad.. If there is anything I can do to help.. Let me know. I still have my logs of when I quit sub.

    FYI Buprenex gave me headaches ... and it's just Bupe and very "clean".

    I really FEEL for you. You are RIGHT where I was with 2 years and I was the most miserable I have ever been. (well except for benzo w/d) But you know what I mean.

    Feel free to e-mail me with ANY questions even ones you don't want to post here.

    You are no newbie with this but we do forget how bad the depression can be the first week or 2 so try to prepare yourself for that. It is short lived and will pass in severity and the lingering crapola will follow. JUST REMEMBER it's from the drug .. it's not you .. it's temporary!

    I have some supplements which I thing help a lot and can point you to the source.. (if interested e-mail me)

    Don't loose faith ... If Keith Richards and Ray Charles can recover you can too.

    HUGS!!!
     
  12. spring

    spring Administrator

    Originally posted by mic
    Spring-
    I'll follow closely, I need to get off this year as well. I'm working the strongest program I know how; I'll hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Withdrawl symptoms is one thing I have a great deal of experience with.
    Take care, Mic

    "It takes what it takes"
     
  13. lostagain

    lostagain Member

    Hey all...I have read your posts and information. I too agree that alot of drs don't know how to really handle this med. That is why I came here...the addicts know way more.
    My dr ( I got on sub after oxycontin ) and she seems to treat me like I should completely give into everything she says. However, I am the one that will suffer. I intially wanted to use sub only for detox, but she wants me on it longer.
    Could any of you knowlegable folks help me out with a taper sched.? I want to be safe; I don't want prolonged withdrawls, but that seems ineveitable at this point...
    Thank you all so much in advance.
    Debbie
     
  14. BlondeBomb

    BlondeBomb Well-Known Member

    Hey guys,

    My doctor was a perfect example of a doctor that did not have any idea of what sub is all about. First he started me at 32 mgs a day and it make me real sick, if I had not gotten information on this site about less is more, I would have never dropped down to 8 mgs a day. By the 3nd day I was only taking 8 mgs and felt soooooo much better than day one.

    He then told me that sub was not addictive and I stayed on it longer than I should have... a total of 2 months. Looking back in retrospect I wish I had stepped off at around the 3 week mark. I only know that when I stepped off of sub I felt like I had stepped of a cliff, and felt that way for several months.

    I asked him how I would feel when i stepped off sub...his response was you will feel fine. I should have known better, if it sounds too good to be true...it probably is. Either he had no idea of what he was talking about when it comes to sub or he was a flat out liar.

    Anyway, that is my input on sub. Doctors are telling alot of mis-truths out there and messing with alot of people's heads. I wish they would visit this site and really learn about sub and addiction. Take care.


    Teri
     
  15. spring

    spring Administrator

    I have been reading several posts by people who are scared of getting hooked on the Sub if they use it to detox. Using it for a 2 week period most likely isnt going to cause you any problems when you stop using it. In my opinion, 2 weeks is a long time to be detoxing off heroin or hydros. Of course it's different with oxycontin and methadone since they take longer to leave your system.

    The trick is to use it only as long as you need to while your body rids itself of the heroin or whatever opiate you are addicted to.
    Once the dope is gone then do a quick taper off the Sub.....a quick taper does not mean drawing it out over a period of weeks. That's not necessary. If it's done right, you shouldn't have to taper at all. Just stop taking it.

    I detoxed from heroin successfully and painlessly in 6 days with a grand total of four 2mg Suboxone tabs.

    I brought my post (below) to this thread to show that if used the correct way for detox purposes, there shouldnt be any problems coming off it.

    Originally posted by spring
    Maybe if I share my first Suboxone detox experience with you, it will help ease your fears a bit. The FEAR is most always worse than the actual detox itself. I'm not clear on whether you have gone thru a detox yet or not. Unless you're a doctor and have a steady supply at hand, I'm sure you have felt withdrawals at one time or another.

    You are about to be pleasantly surprised my friend. Remember that you will be detoxing yourself with an opiate. Sub is an opiate. It will fill those brain receptors before they have a chance to scream at you to be fed.

    I'm glad you chose to come here to the board for support and encouragement. Stick close to us and you will get thru this just fine. There are hundreds of us here who can help you along the way.

    As far as being able to work during those first couple days....everyone is different. I think it may depend on how healthy you are for one thing. Are you run down and havent been eating right? Then you may have a lack of energy, but most likely not. About the worst I ever got was a case of the chills that didnt go away until about the third day on Sub. I have also found that taking 8 mgs or more of Sub at a time can make you feel worse than if you only take 2 or 4 mgs at a time. LESS is MORE. The less of it you take, the better it makes you feel.

    I hope this helps even if just a little. Please keep posting and asking questions. We will help you get thru this.


    Below is a brief journal of my first Sub detox....

    My Suboxone detox started out with low doses...2 mgs at a time.

    Here's how my first inpatient detox with Suboxone went...

    Day 1)..I arrived at the rehab on a Wednesday afternoon at 3pm. I used my last hit of heroin 5 hours earlier that day around 10:am.

    Since I was still feeling pretty good, I spent the afternoon unpacking and organizing my room. I took a shower and changed into some comfy sweats. I ate dinner around 5pm and spent the rest of the evening strolling around the detox ward, making several stops to the smoking room to smoke cigarettes and socialize. I got to know everyone else who was detoxing with me, what their poison was, how long they had been there, etc.
    I made myself comfortable for the days to come. This was my first experience with a Sub detox and even tho I had read and heard plenty of good stuff about it, I was still dreading those nasty w/d symptoms that I knew so well.

    Day 2)..I didnt start going into w/d until 9:00 Thursday morning. I had been at the rehab for close to 18 hours. It had been 23 hours since I last used any opiates. I started the yawning/sneezing thing around 9:am Thursday morning. Once it started, all the rest of it came on fast. I was starting to get the chills and sweats and my legs were aching.
    I was given my first dose of 2mg Suboxone at 10:am, 24 hours after my last use of heroin.
    By noon I was completely wel
     
  16. jennysworld

    jennysworld Well-Known Member

    Thanx for the post..Spring.
    I can relate to your exp. w/ the sub..detox/maitainence..i did the same thing(kind of)..
    I had relapsed w/ H..and sought out a sub doctor for detox..
    I was on very high doses initially..8 mgs every 6 hrs..and i felt pretty bad.
    The first 3 days were hellish(sim. to c/t)but then as i went down in mgs. i felt better.
    Detox/led to maitainence as i relapsed after the detox..
    Its now been 17 months on sub..
    My question to you..is now that im holding fine at 2 mgs..i wake up restless/and run straight to the sub..like i used to feel prior to my wake-up.
    I have not touched H in the entire time-but i am absoulutely addicted to the suboxone.
    Im starting to chip away at the 2 mgs-to get down to 1 mg.
    My plan is to be off sub by summer.
    Ive noticed a lil craving seeping in-but nothing too bad-but im feeling nervous about coming off now.
    After several years addicted to heroin-and now suboxone-im wondering if i can really become opiate free.
    The pickle/cucumber analogy-freaks me out.
    Are you planning to come off-or stay on maitainence.
    I feel like its turning on me-why upon waking am i squirming-it makes me feel kinda crazed..
    Thanks for listening..and thank you for your posts.
    Blessed Be..
    jen
     

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