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Who's been free from Sub for over a year?

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by Skinny, Apr 2, 2007.

  1. Shellybean

    Shellybean Well-Known Member

    Hey John-
    I didnt do the SUB Run, but I did successfully Tapered off of 25-30 Norco's a day!! And At day 10 I was FREEZING still as a matter of fact I turned on the oven and opened it up and sat there for a while! It works... Also John Hot Baths help and if you can get a heating pad those work Awesome also!!
    Also My head was at day 10 still foggy and cloudy, but it will get better!!

    John here is another thing I would reccomend, You should start to Make a journal of each day! So when you go back and look at it you will say " WoW I AM Getting Better!! It works I Promise!;);)

    Keep up the great Work!!:)
    Love
    Shelly

    "Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced."
    Opiate Free- 1-20-07
     
  2. mojorzn

    mojorzn New Member

    Do we have any positive stories from people who have been on suboxone for a few years and are fine with it? Of course, detox is painful. Tell me something I don't know. But the level of unmanageability, near-death experiences, cross-drug abuse (alcohol, benzos, etc.) must be down for anyone who has tried suboxone. Enough horror stories. How about some positvity? Suboxone has to be the lesser of many evils.

    positive vibes please
     
  3. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Welcome Mojorzn,
    The title to this thread is" To use Sub or not- Helping future sub users"."Please reply if you have done sub in anyway,quit, and have been clean 1 year or longer".
    So please, post your past experience with Sub.Or as the forum guidlines suggest,start a new topic to address your question for faster and more responses directed at YOUR concerns.Positive or otherwise.
     
  4. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    NOPE! I went IP to detox. Not to replace my DOC.Why did I go IP for 7 days when ,if I wanted Sub I could spend 7 minutes in a doc's office?
     
  5. slepinosa

    slepinosa Well-Known Member

    I don't believe they (meaning any medical authority or manufacturor of bupe) ever said that the receptors healed while on bupe, I have never read it in any literature, and I believe it more than less a rumor started by wishful thinking and optomistic observations (for example when a person is able to take less bupe over time, many see this as evidence that the brain is healing--though no authority has ever claimed it)

    Anyway if you know of a source that made that claim, I'd be interested in seeing it. Thanks.
     
  6. Bup4pain

    Bup4pain Well-Known Member

    If I had to do it over would I take bupe long term again? .... NO FREAKING WAY!
     
  7. LisaAnne

    LisaAnne Well-Known Member

    If I was to use subox for a very short time , say......5-7 days , at a low dose would it releive my w/d symptoms from a perc addiction , and would I feel any kind of w/d after stopping the subox?
     
  8. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Hey Lisa Anne,
    You may want to post a new topic with your question.You'll get alot more answers faster. But yes it would help aleviate your DOC WD with a short term use. But it's only one tool. What's your use and history? It's not the magic pill we all think of.
     
  9. darkdaze

    darkdaze Well-Known Member

  10. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Hey DD, How many ways can you spell advertising! You may be in a struggle right now, but not doomed ,till you give up. The other site has alot that have given up.Mostly the perspective of clean, recovery, and addiction.
    Wern't you the one that said a light went off. If we can put half our energy into WD/detox as we did to cop our DOC,the battle can be won!! With FAR greater rewards!
     
  11. darkdaze

    darkdaze Well-Known Member

    did i say that? just take me out back and shoot me-- put me out of my misery... just kidding :)
     
  12. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Hi Denise,

    Why don't you come over here and I'll take care of you.:) You can bring your kids. My son will play video games with them and keep them busy.

    I have a bone to pick with the information in that ad. It claims that long-term bupe will give your body a chance to produce endorphins again. How is this supposed to work? Because it only partially fills the receptors, the unfilled part is supposed to lure endorphins back over and increase production? If this is true, why is it so much easier to get off short term bupe than long term bupe?

    What are they basing this claim on? Because the receptors are only partially filled they logically assume this increases endorphin production? Do they have any proof of this? Where's Ratchett?[8D]

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  13. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    Long term Bupe doesnt "fix" the brain.. It screws it up!

    Repeated exposure to buprenorphine may eventually lead to changes in nuclear function and to altered rates of transcription of particular target genes by causing repeated perturbation of intracellular signal transduction pathways. Altered _expression of these genes would lead to altered activity of the neurons in which those changes occur and, ultimately, to changes
    in the neural circuits in which those neurons operate. The result would be stable changes in behavior and mood. Whereas neural genes are probably regulated by hundreds of distinct types of transcription factor, two transcription factors in particular have so far been implicated in long term buprenorphine exposure: the cyclic-AMP response-element-binding protein (CREB)
    and .FosB.CREB and upregulation of the cAMP pathway. CREB regulates the transcription of genes that contain a CRE site (cAMP response element; consensus sequence (TGACGTCA) within their regulatory regions. These are only two of the many, novel and as-yet undiscovered transcriptional pathways that influence neural network modulation in cases of long-term opioid administration.

    This modulation can be explained further by the fact that longer ? life opioids, despite their many distinct actions in the brain, converge in acting upon some common systems. Prominent among these actions is the constant activation of the mesolimbic dopamine system. This activation involves increased firing of dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) of the
    midbrain, and a subsequent increase of dopamine released into the nucleus accumbens (NAc) (also called the ventral striatum) and other regions of the limbic forebrain (for example the prefrontal cortex). Even after discontinuation of buprenorphine or methadone, protracted abstinence describes these various changes in drug reward and the persistent dysregulation of the
    reward circuitry that underlies them. Excessive buprenorphine exposure may create changes in many
    brain structures in addition to the VTA and NAc. In particular prolonged exposure, although partly mediated by the VTA–NAc pathway, seem to involve plasticity in structures that mediate learned or conditioned responses, such as the amygdala, the hippocampus and the cerebral.
    Chronic exposure to buprenorphine also reduces the birth of new neurons in the adult, newly born neurons and their integration within existing hippocampal circuits might As mentioned earlier, upregulation of the cAMP pathway within neurons is an important mechanism of tolerance and dependence regardless of the partial agonist properties of buprenorphine. A key part of this upregulation is the increased amount of PKA within certain types of neuron,which is due to the induction of particular catalytic and regulatory subunits of the kinase. Several lines of evidence indicate that induction of PKA subunits might not be achieved at the transcriptional level. For instance, upregulation of PKA immunoreactivity is not associated with detectable changes in subunit mRNA levels in certain brain areas. Similarly, alterations in CREB and .FosB do not lead to changes in PKA subunit expression, and the promoters of the PKA subunit genes do not contain identifiable response elements for these or other regulated transcription factors. Instead, work in cell culture indicates that induction of PKA might occur through reduced degradation of the subunits According to this scheme, inhibition of adenylyl cyclase by buprenorphine, for example, causes reduced levels of cAMP.As a result, more PKA molecules exist in the inactive holoenzyme form,which is less vulnerable to degradation within PROTEASOMES.Consequently, PKA subunits accumulate until a new equilibrium is achieved.
     
  14. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Gee thanks, Ratchett. What do you think I am, a biochemist?:D

    OK, now that I have nystagmus, trying to wade thru this, let me ask you this. Let's assume for the moment that this "theory" was based on something scientific and that the pharmaceutical company didn't just fabricate it to promote the drug; are you saying that even if it WERE theoretically possible, their assumption that because a=b, then b=c is incorrect because there are multiple other biochemical processes in the brain, caused by prolonged sub use, that invalidate this theory?

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  15. toto

    toto Well-Known Member

    After looking at that web site DD posted I am more afraid than ever. My receptors are totally frigged up after years of opiate usage. The major anxiety is my major symptom when I stop my DOC. Waiting for my clonidine and have heard it will help. I guess my big question is will my receptors start making feel good endorphins again or have they died? What is the major concensus about this? Ratchett, Dee, Arlene, Jdude? Looking for hope but need to hear the truth. I have tried the Sub but too afraid to take it longer than a couple days. Will use the clonidine but need to know that my stupid brain will start working right after while or not. Am I doomed?. Thanks for posting on your thread LisaAnne and good luck with your WDs. You came to the right place for help and advice. After I receive the clonidine and detox,again, I'll get back to my own thread...peace...
     
  16. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    In plain english:

    Short acting opioids fall off the receptors quickly giving the brain a chance to heal while you are sleeping and the short time you are awake until you use.. then the brain stops producing endorphins.. until the opioid once again falls off (crashing, wd's)

    Long acting opioids (partial (sub)) or full agonist (methadone)) fill the receptors even between doses.. Therefor the brain NEVER gets a slight chance to produce endorphins on its own... Thats why PAWS are so prevalent with bupe and sub... These "pathways" do heal over time.. but sometimes its only a "new normal" which sadly is below par from our "old normal"

    The trick to getting off drugs is to get off drugs.. Plain and simple.
     
  17. toto

    toto Well-Known Member

    That was quick ratchett. So when when our receptors get 'healed' would the anxiety and other symptoms go away? Sounds like we never get back to our old selfs. Are we damaged forever? Would we ever feel 'good' without a drug or have we damaged ourselves so badly that we are doomed? When do we know that we are as healed as we can get? I know its different for everyone else. Oh well, this is LisaAnnes thread. Will post on my own when thread when I get the clonidine...peace...
     
  18. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Hey Toto,
    Personally I too am wondering about the "old me". How long do I want to go back? Pre-opiate? If that's the case,I don't know what changed in 8yrs? If I could go back to anything it would be my pre-sub days!
    I can still remember coming out of detox on Friday feeling OK on 4-5 days of sub. Had the sub doc appointment on tuesday as my "follow-up" visit[V][?]No sub for 3-4 days,then why did I need 32mg on the following Tuesday. I wasn't the only one that had a bad case of stinking thinking THAT day, the doc banked on it.
     
  19. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Toto, my dear ~

    I can only speak to my truth.

    I was not doomed. My endorphins were not dead....they had just gone into hiding. I guess they figured they weren't needed anymore because of the years of Percodan and Methadone. After 22 years of heavy use, they were feeling less than and abandoned. So they headed for the hills.

    Yeah....it took me a very long time to feel better. To feel functional. I would never use the term *normal* because I wasn't *normal* before I started my using. I was ph*cked up then....just didn't know it. I believe it took me about 14 months. Although my boss said 2 years based on my behavior. His is probably a truer read...he's not *one of us* and his perceptions tend to be more accurate.

    But that aside, I began work at 5 months. I began to re-enter daily life at that time. To *function.*

    Toto....there is no question that 15 years of Methadone took a serious toll on me. The PAWS was miserable. That's a fact too. I was 55+1/2 when I got clean and physically, its hard to rebound at that age to say nothing of the mental changes that are required. A change in thinking for we older addicts doesn't come easily nor naturally.

    But the very good news is that, almost 4+1/2 years down the road...my endorphins are alive and very much well. I say that with absolute certainty.

    See, I force-feed my endorphins with a different perspective on life. I give them something they're not accustomed to. I give them attitude....a hell of lot of attitude. I am positive in my approach to my new life. I am grateful. Grateful for emotions of all types. Grateful that I can dance (yes, literally), go horseback riding and motorcycle riding. Grateful that I am accountable & present in my own life and my family's life. Grateful for my integrity.

    I wouldn't have traded the experience of getting clean and PAWS for anything in the world. I know it sounds strange...even bizarre. But very basically, its made me the woman I am today. Strong and confident. I no longer live in fear of everything and anything. When I fear something.....I know I can walk through it. That's the gift that this lousy experience has given me.

    And in my book, it doesn't get better than that.:)

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    <center>"Half measures availed us nothing. The results were nil until we let go absolutely.
    If nothing changes, nothing changes"</center>
     
  20. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    OK, Ratchett, you're saying that this theory about "sub only partially filling the receptors so the body will begin producing endorphins" again is bogus, or at least, it might have worked in theory but not on this planet, correct?

    What I want to know is, let's say a person were to have a continuous morphine drip for a long time, would the exact same thing happen, as you just described? Or, is there something unique about sub itself, or about long-acting opiates, that creates long-term problems? Beyond just the "constant filling of the opiate receptors" issue?

    Or, furthermore, is there something specific to sub, mentioned up in that article (that I can't comprehend), that makes it cause the total opposite of this "partial receptor filling" theory? That makes it have even worse long-term effects than methadone, a long-acting full agonist?

    You see, I totally agree with what you said. Makes perfect sense to me. The exogenous replacement concept is well known in physiology. If you take exogenous cortisone or decadron, the body will stop producing its own. Why you have to wean off them. This is even true with clonidine. When you alter the body's production of noradrenaline, you have to wean off it so the body can regulate its own production. So you won't have rebound blood pressure problems.

    But what I want to know is whether there is something about sub that goes beyond the filling of the receptors issue. Because I suspect, though I'm not 100% sure, that even if you gave someone a continuous morphine drip for a long time, they still would not have the problems afterwards that many get after long-term sub.

    The problem is, I cannot comprehend the complex biochemical information you have provided or that I have found when I try to research it myself. Can you explain it to me?

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     

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