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Who's been free from Sub for over a year?

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by Skinny, Apr 2, 2007.

  1. Snuggles

    Snuggles Active Member

    I am not a long term Bup user. However, I was a long term m'done user. And I must say I see alot of FACTS here.

    I used the Bup short term for 19 days after cold turkey'g off m'done for a wk. It worked like 'magic' the first time, I had been laid up for a wk in wd's, took 2mg and cleaned the whole house!! Felt great....
    After that the other 18 days I felt better than the m'done wd's but because i was sticking to a short term taper per bup4pain's excellent advice, i felt every doseage drop from the bup.
    I stopped it last thursday and I FEEL GREAT!! CLEAN!!! AND CLEAR HEADED.
    Once I got to 1mg on the bup (7days on 2mg) It would only hold me 8-12hrs. I couldn't sleep again, etc. Now again, i was greatful to feel "ok" half the time. As M'done in my opinion, is equally HORRIFIC coming off. Especially cold turkey at 25mgs. But I kept my head strong....stuck to the short term plan, and I did it.

    I KNOW for me, had I tried to do the bup long term, I would've needed to be above 4mg to hold, as even two... was just 'ok' I knew also from the help of these forums that short term, or NO TERMS!! I still at this moment have a couple mg's here, which now that I am 3 days off and feel better than i did the last week on, I will dispose of them.
    I just thank god that the first day I took it I sought the advice of these forums and KNEW that although it had a place in recovery...THAT PLACE WAS SHORT TERM!! I stuck to the plan, and even quit 3 days early. :)

    I have clonidine, which is helping, and I am good to go.....

  2. Skinny

    Skinny Well-Known Member

    Someone is telling me they are in recovery on bup. How are you in recovery when you are on the worst s**t on the planet?

    Addicts look for comfort. They can ask 100 people and 99 can say Sub is bad. And if 1 in that 100 says that Sub is good they cling to it like there is no tomorrow.
    I did it myself. But I feel like shtt right now because of it.
    I am thinking clear when I decided to tell people, who have never taken this shttt, how bad it is.

    When I came home from detox, I felt like absolute hell. Feeling that bad I still noticed something right the second I walked into my house. It seems that before everything was one dimensional but with no drug in me it seemed like it was in 3D. I thought that was so cool.

    I can tell you when people like Bup4 started finding out how bad this shtt is, I listened.

  3. Mic

    Mic Guest

    Please respect each others opinions. Before posting, please see Spring's comment in red at the top of the thread. (pp 1)


    It takes what it takes
  4. HToutlaws

    HToutlaws Well-Known Member

    I'm glad to see this thread again.

    A variety of experiences, opinions, & viewpoints.

    Goodbye Opiates....FOREVER!
  5. josie

    josie Well-Known Member

    To use sub or not for newcomers.........research and get all the information that you can regarding this medication and treatment so that you can make a truly informed decision. Then you can determine which is best for you; an inpatient rehab facility, a short term detox, sub or methadone therapy short term or long term sub or methadone treatment. This is about your life.

    Just remember that facts are better to educate oneself with than opinions. People have experiences; but not everyone has the same experience with any form of treatment.

    Whatever path you choose, I wish you success on your route to health and happiness.

  6. Skinny

    Skinny Well-Known Member

    I don't mean to sound like I think I am the all mighty on sub Josie, but I am concerned about these post that ignore what I call the facts. For me the facts come from the field mice, the lab rats. That is who we are. Bup4pain, Ratchett, several others. What are facts and opinions? Are facts what the makers tell us, are they what the Doc tells us. It is now 6 years later, the Docs are still out there starting people at doses as high as 24 - 32 MGs. That is SICK! I am sorry if I missunderstood that but it sounds like opinions are what is on this thread. I would never trust anything other than other addicts opinions from there own personal lab rat experience. What is your experience with this drug? So far I have yet to see ANYONE use this drug for 2-3 years, quit for at least 1 year, and not still have symptoms that they are confident are due to sub. In the end there is no more valuable info for me than to listen to someone like Bup4pain that has " Been there, done that, wore out the tee shirt "
    EDITED.. I see your scientific post now Josie, please keep that crap out of this thread. I did not even waiste my time to read it. Is there a conspiracy? Are you kidding? Curious, do you know yet that cigarettes cause health issues? I don't mean to be an azz incase you really do not realize what you are saying and you do not work for the ENEMY. Maybe you are just very thourough and analytical in all your decisions. If that is the case let me assure you that your group study is right here! Even the newbies I was argueing with at the start of this thread are now hating this shttt. This is never going to stop it looks like. How do we get thru to newbies that the truth comes from experience. PEOPLE, DON'T LISTEN TO A ADDICT THAT IS:
    1) On this drug for 3 days now and posting positive thoughts!
    2) Still on this drug talking about how great it is going!
    3) Quoting research that is as TOTALLY BIAS!
    This is legal drug trade. What do you think a drug dealer would post about crack research? They would probally say in a double blind, the crack patients were very focused. I hope somehow a few people can be stopped from starting this drug.

  7. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Hey Skinny,
    Did'nt want to post or corrupt the thread..I'm only 52 days post sub.,Praying hard for 60, a day at a time. Not the one year. But josie,who has never tasted sub wanted to post about facts.In the "scientific" study FACTS:No post (the one year) study was followed. 50% of those in the study.."who continued to experience symptoms of opiate withdrawal or other signs of INADEQUATE clinical RESPONSE while taking the MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE dose of buprenorphine-naltrexone were switched to methadone" that was B4 the first year was up! There are alot more FACTS she can't see. I appologize for posting..I did read the request..."DONE sub for ...."
    Stay well
  8. Skinny

    Skinny Well-Known Member

    Jdude, no prob at all. It is really the users that post that kill me. YOu know all about it though. You and I are in the same place. I am day 49 at home. They are now talking about possible Fibomylgia may be doing this crap to my back. I am so miserable. My natural pain meds do not seem to do crap still. So when I see crap like that post, I get a little hot. GL bud.........

    Sub = never going back to the life you once knew!
  9. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    Like has been said 100's of times here...

    The people that are most affirmative regarding sub treatment/long term maintenance are the ones that have never tried to quit, or the ones that are still in the honeymoon phase. When individuals feel the need to justify or defend their use it sends red flags up, when they feel the need to justify someone else use, its called an ENABLER! If we were defending the excessive use of Dr prescribed, legally obtained pain medication.. ie: "I love my oxy/hydro it has "saved me from buying heroin on the street"..."it makes me feel great!!" don’t you think most people would have a problem with that? But when a individual comes here and tells us that the opioid buprenorphine which is 30X stronger than morphine and about 30X harder/longer to come off of is some "wonder drug" that has "saved" "changed" them..

    I used to travel to Vegas and piss away thousands of dollars and never see my family.
    Now I sit at home ignoring my family instead, pissing away thousands at online poker. Instead of being broke all the time, I just owe a small fortune to the credit card companies.
    ( Is there really much of a difference?)
    (This was just a theoretical example... but a very likely one)

    Forget about the "replacement" analogy for a second. Wasn’t the goal to STOP being addicted to opioids? How is being "chained" to another more powerful opioid that allegedly "doesn’t get you high anymore" any better? What happens if that opioid stops working? You just put your alleged "previous addiction" on "hold" for a couple/few years? Now you have kids, mortgages, a better job that are all in jeopardy? Your previous addiction is still there, your miracle pill no longer pacifies you, your responsibilities are greater, and now you have months of wd's/ PAWS to look forward to and a family that depends on you...

    Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Treat the problem, don’t stick a "magic band-aid" on it and hope it all goes away. Its like buying a lottery ticket and hope winning pays all your bills... you have to WORK on something to get it done. Taking another form of pill/drug everyday and keeping your fingers crossed that it works forever because the drug company/Dr said it would work forever even though there are no long term studies to prove it, are like buying a new car without a warranty.. eventually its going to break down.

    If using drugs made us feel good "forever" than why did any of us ever even try to quit? Why does sub hold the unproven "golden pass" that excludes it from eventual failure that so many people trust?

    How did I quit bupe/sub for almost 2 years ( I was on it for 7 years straight) and never even think for a second to EVER try it again??? BECAUSE IT STOPPED WORKING FOR ME AND IT WAS A BITCH TO COME OFF OF.
    -Because I no longer wanted to be chained to another drug.
    -Because I was living in a bupe induced "fog"
    -Because I wanted to go on vacation without worrying about my precious "meds" being enough for the trip.
    -Because I wanted to stop paying my Dr another $100 for a "office visit" every month and additional money for the bupe/sub (I used both)
    -Because I kept breaking promises to myself saying that "this was the last time I fill my script" or "I will start tapering tomorrow"
    -Because I never wanted to tell myself it wasn’t summer yet and I didn’t have enough time off from work to deal with the wd's from sub.
    -Because I never wanted to tell myself that my relationships/life wasn’t perfect enough to deal with life without my precious.

    I have news.. Life will NEVER be a 100% perfect time to quit sub, and all the stars and planets will NEVER align in just the right order... The Wife/Husband/Mate/kids/boss/job/pressure will NEVER change to a point of perfection.. so you can "deal" with it. If you think you are ready..then NOW is the time!

    If you Don't think you are ready, then join ANY program that will support you and give you the tools you need to stay clean from maintenance and other drugs. If its still working for you, or you are still in the honeymoon phas
  10. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    I agree. Excellent post, Ratchett. Rational and objective. Makes total sense to me.

    Well, I could have stuck my head up my a**, coming off methadone, and said hell, he used high doses for several years, what does he know?

    But, I have a rational mind. I used sub myself several years ago. Only for 5 months and at a low dose. Did everything right, even tapered at the end. Did I learn new non-addict behaviors? Sure. For 5 months I learned to stop reaching into the pill bottle every few hours. Went to group and was a good sub patient.

    But when I stopped after only 5 months at low dose, even after tapering, I was dragging and had no motivation and poor sleep for months. And all that great non-addict behavior I had learned started to fail me. Because if I thought it was tough staying clean off short-acting opiates, this new hell just wore down my resolve and made the previous experiences seem like a cake-walk. So much for new learned behaviors.

    So, I took my own personal experience, combined with the warnings here from Ratchett, Bup4pain and the others, and made what I consider to be a totally rational decision. And I decided not to risk it.

    That's me. I have a rational, analytical mind. I opt to view information rationally and try to keep my fear and emotion out of it at this point. Thanks Ratchett and Bup4pain and all the others. I suspect you saved me from more misery than I already had to deal with.


    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
  11. dogpaw

    dogpaw Guest

    Slam -dunk, Ratchett!
  12. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    Thanks guys!

    I added/edited the hell out of it, because I just went nutz on a wild Rant. If your opinions of the stuff changed, please feel free to "edit/change/delete" your responses. I usually never edit my stuff after the fact, but I wanted to throw in the kitchen sink as well... this new thread could make a difference in someones life and I wanted to make sure all the bases were covered.
  13. Shellybean

    Shellybean Well-Known Member

    Excellent Post! I also want to Say Thank You very Much! I was so close to going The Sub route! Lucky I found this site and wasnt Brain washed at another site!!! You, Bup4Pain, Arlene and this whole forum has saved my life in so many ways!! I cant express how Grateful I am to You all!
    I have learned so much about addiction and recovery, being on this site!
    Thank You So Much!

    Love and respect:)

    "Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced."
    Opiate Free- 1-20-07
  14. spring

    spring Administrator

    What you just said about your experience with Sub pretty much says it all Dee.

    My main argumement FOR Sub was that I thought it would give me time to get into a new routine before I went totally drug free. But what it really did was delay the inevitable and cause a very very long prolonged delay into a drug free lifestyle.

    I'm paying dearly for using the Sub for over 3 years when I could have just kicked the dope and been over and done with it. I could have "learned" how to live a drug free lifestyle while being actually drug free. To me, there is no other way around it.

    A person must give up the drugs FIRST....ALL OPIATES....and THEN everything else will fall into place. Stay clean. Stay clean. Stay clean FIRST! This is the most important and successful route to take in my opinion.

    ~Do the right thing and risk the consequences~
  15. spring

    spring Administrator

    Oh and just for the record....as one member put it;
    This is my view also. I am not purposely trying to persuade and prevent others from trying Sub. I'm sure there are some who have had very good experiences with it. And I'm sure it has actually helped save a few lives, but I havent heard much from those people and for the most part I have seen nothing but negative experiences with it.

    Getting and staying clean is not easy! It's hard work and takes dedication. But it CAN BE DONE! and I promise you that it gets easier the longer you stay away from your drug of choice.

    However, for one reason or another, there are some who arent able to do it..period.
    And to those people I say this....do whatever you have to do to get away from the street crap. Do whatever you have to do to stop taking mega doses of hydrocodone because you are absolutely killing your liver with the Tylenol that comes with it. For those of you who can't or won't become willing to do whatever it takes to get and stay clean then by all means.....get on a maintenance drug.

    And for those of you who are able and willing to do the work that comes with getting on the path to recovery....there is no easy way out of this. A maintanance drug will only delay the getting clean process and those maintanance drugs are much harder and more painful to come off of than the drugs you are on now. So why not bite the bullet and get it over with? It has to happen some time. Why not right now?

    ~Do the right thing and risk the consequences~
  16. Nomadic 1

    Nomadic 1 Well-Known Member

    Yeppers, delayed my getting clean by at least a year, maybe more. As we get older we fully understand how valuable a year can really be. I won't ever get that back, ever.


    "Many a false step is taken by standing still." Arnold Glasow
  17. Skinny

    Skinny Well-Known Member

    Yes, what Ratchett said...
    Just one more symptom for me. I have been home 51 days from detox. I live in the South. I have not had my AC in the on position for one second. That is how messed up my system is. I sleep under full covers at night. It is 94 today. I am only cold in the mornings really, when it is a brisk 81 inside my house. It it the craziest thing I have ever been thru. I have not had a second of relief from the pain in my back, that as far as the doc can find, is unknown. I still have bad sweats at night. I wonder how many lifes this crap has changed that we do not know about?
    P.S. Ratch, If that example about online poker is really you, I can help... Ha, Joking.....

    Sub = never going back to the life you once knew!
  18. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Well, I'm going to take a slightly different view for a minute.

    I am an advocate. I advocate by sharing my experience, strength and hope.

    I do advocate for</u> sobriety here.

    And I am an advocate of NA/AA...which is different than being an advocate for 12 Step Programs.

    They don't need my advocacy for them....nor do they want my advocacy. However, I personally will suggest them...every chance I get...as a path that has worked in my recovery.

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    "Half measures availed us nothing - if nothing changes, nothing changes"
  19. spring

    spring Administrator

    Sigh!! Once again you took my quote out of context. What I meant is that we dont have a specific agenda here to try to stop people from taking Sub. We are merely letting our experiences speak for themselves.
    As for advocating for sobriety...I think that goes without saying. After all, it IS the purpose of our board.
  20. onemind

    onemind Well-Known Member

    I was only on Suboxone for TWO days, 8mg and 8mg.. After I felt so bad on the Sub, I stopped. I did a 14 day norco taper..

    Today is 25 days off my two day sub run. I still have at times my triceps feel like ice, even if I wear sweatshirts. Could this still be from only two days on Sub? If someone knows please let me know.

    Today is 10 days off Opiates.. My brain is still very dream like and I only sleep about 2-3 hours a night for the last 3 weeks.

    My final question is could two days on Sub, cause these side effects. I have done a Norco taper, and I never had my arms and body feel so cold, my skin feels like ice..
    Any help would be great. I just want to know I am not losing my mind.. Thank you, John

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