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Need to quit.

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by GottaQuit, Jan 5, 2004.

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  1. GottaQuit

    GottaQuit Member

    Yet another question (I'm sorry!)...

    Say by a stroke of ****ty luck, I do end up in acute withdrawal after taking my first dose of Subutex too soon after my last use of heroin. If I were then to take heroin during my acute withdrawal, would that end withdrawal? Or once I dose with Subutex the first time, is there no turning back? Will a dose of heroin only make it worse? Somehow that doesn't make sense but, my head is just spinning from trying to plan this out right. I might very well be asking the dumbest question ever. Arrrgh.

    The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to figure out whether or not to keep an "emergency" bag of heroin around just in case I go into acute withdrawal. Obviously, I'd love to be totally rid of the junk before I take that first dose of Subutex. But something is telling me, it's better to be safe than sorry and I should keep a bag around in case I dose too early and end up in serious pain.

    If the heroin then does take me out of acute withdrawal, I'd simply start over, right? I'd finish the dope, begin withdrawal again and WAIT LONGER TO TAKE THE SUBUTEX THIS TIME. At that point I would have a better handle on how long to wait and then it's just a matter of crossing my fingers.

    I absolutely DON'T want to do this method if I don't have to. In a perfect world, I'll dose with the 8 mg of Subutex at exactly the right moment and be home free. But if I somehow dose too early, I just don't want to deal with acute withdrawal. Regular withdrawal is bad enough!

    Any thoughts? Am I being too paranoid about this acute withdrawal thing? Feel free to tell me to shut up and just take the pill.
     
  2. diavolo7

    diavolo7 Well-Known Member

    Hi GQ,

    Well, I had NO intention of making you paranoid. Quitting is THE best thing you can do for yourself. I agree with you in regard to the 'copping rush'. I don't get it, either. I had a mellow situation, too. Guy pulls up in his Lincoln Navigator (!) and drops it off to me, right in front of my door. Nice! I still HATED it.

    Now, I was on suboxone, yes. The naloxone, however, is absorbed in a negligible amount using sublingual administration. It was the bupe that caused the withdrawal. I have to say, I was in acute withdrawal for about 2.5 hours, BUT, I felt completely detached from my body and it was almost like a dream state. Not that it didn't suck, but I'm still here!
    My boyfriend started his dosage (same dose as me) 12 hours after his last dose, and he was just fine.
    I think the difference might have been quantity of H ingested. I did about 12 bags on my last day (like I said, crappy stuff), he did about 1/2 that (he ran out of money).

    The doctor originally prescribed me the 8mg suboxone and wanted me to break it in 1/2 for my first dose, and then take another 4mg piece 1/2 hour later, then another 4 hours later.
    The pharmacy only had the 2mg dosage. So, I took 2, went into withdrawal, took another 2 half an hour later, then I didn't wait 4 hours, took another 2 about an hour later and the w/d stopped a little while later. I subsequently did 16mg that day. 12mg the next, then cut the dosage in 1/2 each day until I stopped, very quickly.
    I have no idea if you can break subutex in half safely. Someone here should know.

    Heroin will NOT have any affect at all once you begin your subutex. The bupe will block it completely. So, don't bother with that.

    How many bags have you done in the past 12 hours?

    You sound incredibly determined and strong. Please don't let my prior post stop you. I just wanted you to know what happened so you will wait as long as possible. Again, my boyfriend did NOT have the acute w/d symptoms. Bupe is a strange drug. Effects are different for all I guess.
     
  3. Bup4pain

    Bup4pain Well-Known Member

    Gotta..

    I don't have much time... But I'll do the best I can.

    YES cut the pill. WAIT as long as you can! Try for **16-24** hrs. Then take 1/4 (2 mg) wait an hour.. If it makes you a LOT sicker.. wait a 2-3 more hours THEN take 2 mg again.

    If the first 2 mg dose did not make you sicker than take 2 mg after the first hour, for 4 mg in the first hour. If you feel the bupe is working (give it at least an hour or an hour and 1/2) take the balance of the 8 mg. (then follow the MD's advise)

    Once you take the bupe you are commited... IT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER! Give it time... BUPE takes a little OVER 1 1/2 hours to peak in effect. Don't expect it to hit you quickly.

    The reason for the 2mg "test" dose is to see if the receptors are ready" to take the bupe w/o kicking the H off. (2 mg will NOT cause a full blown w/d like 8 mg would!) Slow additional dosing will slowly bring you up to the point of stabilization.

    If 4 mg works and holds you no point in taking the full 8mg. You can easily add more sub/bupe, but you can not take less ;)

    It will take 3 days before the buprenorphine wears off enough for H to work again. Once you start you can give away or flush your dope as it will be totally USELESS! The bupe will block the H, and VERY well.

    Don't be to scared... A lot of us have done this.
     
  4. GottaQuit

    GottaQuit Member

    Okay, okay. Couple hours of sleep and I feel a lot better. So, here's what I've learned.

    Yes, I can break my 8 mg Subutex tablets in half without danger if I need to.

    Once I start the Subutex, heroin is useless. As far as I'm concerned, great news.

    I'm being crazy paranoid about this acute withdrawal thing.


    This is all good to know. My doctor told me to take 8 mg's to start and go up to 16 mg if I absolutely had to. No more than that. I'm going to follow his advice. He may take cash, but he's still the doctor. I told him my medical history and the extent of my habit and he came up with 8 mg. That doesn't seem like an unusually high dose to start on so, I'm not going to sweat it. He didn't tell me to break the stuff in half so, maybe I'll wait a couple of days before I start messing around with my dose. Though Bup4Pain, you've given some very solid advice. In fact, I'm going to call my doctor and see what he says. Let's see how I do with less as opposed to more at the start of this induction process.

    About this doctor...

    It's weird, man. This guy has a fancy address but a ****ty little office. It almost feels like this guy was unceremoniously packed away in the back room of an otherwise reputable organization. Sort of "Here, you give those dirty junkies that weird new drug over here where no one can see you," if you catch my drift.

    I tell you, it's good to hear that this acute withdrawal I'm so terrified of only lasted about 2.5 hours. I'm sure it was AWFUL but I had this serious "Basketball Diaries," "Trainspotting." Connie and Dee Dee Ramone **** running through my head. Just days of junkie hell -- the exact opposite of what I want to go through.

    I'm almost ready to start. In the past 24 hours I've done about five bags and I've got about a bag and a half left to my name. I'm guessing that will be gone pretty quickly. I'm getting on a plane later this afternoon. I'm going to a warm environment where there will be no dope to be found for at least 3000 miles. In fact, I think a lot of you live there but I'm sure you'll understand if I don't get more specific.

    I simply hate traveling. I'll have no problem once I'm there but I'm sorry, getting there is NOT half the fun. I'm going to probably end up doing the last of my dope either before I get on the plane or right after I land. I want to be feeling better and on my way out the door with my first dose of Subutex working by tomorrow afternoon.

    I don't know why I'm so nervous. I guess it's just hard for me to understand that something else besides heroin WILL actually take away withdrawal. It's kind of like "I'll believe it when I see it." I remember feeling better when they gave me methadone when I detoxed years ago. But I also remembering, I'd feel a LOT better if they would've given me more. I was seventeen, locked in a detox and there was no discussing my dosage. They gave me what they felt like. And dude, I will never ever forget when I went into severe withdrawal after that last dose of methadone wore off. I complained to them, "I'm very sick, you have to give me something," and they told me, "of course you're sick. Now you have to detox from the methadone." I didn't know it worked like that.

    So while I'm feeling a little better, I'm still nervous to start. I'd feel a lot better if I was doing this at home, so I could contact my doctor if something really goes wrong. But I put things off until the very last minute. I realize now that was a mistake but hopefully, things will be okay. There's more reason to believe they will be than to think it's going to be a disaster. And hey, despite this drug problem, I've been having a run of good luck lately. The world seems to be on my side. It's giving me a lot of close calls, but everything that's supposed to work out, is working out.

    I started therapy a few months ago and it was the best thing I ever did. One thing though: my shrink doesn't know about the drug problem. We've talked about everything else, but I've never brought up the dr
     
  5. Apheana

    Apheana Well-Known Member

    wow- just got caought back up on your story. Curious to know how that first dose goes so I will check back in tomorrow. GOOD LUCK!!! And enjoy the sunshine for all of us stuck in the cold doom and gloom.

    ***Live, Laugh and Love***
     
  6. GottaQuit

    GottaQuit Member

    Okay, so I freaked out and about eight hours after my last dose -- I was sick and popped the first 8 mg Subutex pill.

    Guess how I'm feeling?

    PRETTY DAMN GOOD!

    I think if popped antother 8 mg pill I'd be really high. But you know what? I don't feel sick and that's all I wanted. So I'm off to sleep. Just wanted to check in and let you all know that I've started the Subutex and everything seems to be okay. I'll check back in a few days.

    Thanks everyone!!
     
  7. diavolo7

    diavolo7 Well-Known Member

    Great news, GottaQuit!

    Good for you!! See? All that concern for nothin'!

    I'm so glad you didn't get thrown into w/d. I guess I was just lucky that way ;). Too tell you the truth, I'm almost glad it happened. Taught me a good lesson! And, as I stated, it was as though I were in a dream like state of hell, detached from my body which turned against me. It was short (only 2.5 hours) but quite an effective deterrant!

    So happy for ya. (Don't take more though just because it feels good, it may turn on you and it won't feel so good.)
     
  8. Nancy04

    Nancy04 Member

    Hi all, I just got back from Bup doc, I am to go back to his office at 6 this evening for first pill since I had taken some at 8 this morning.
    So, I am scared of IF I am going to be able to make it through the day. I hope so. I am ready to start the BUP. Hope everyone is well.
     
  9. spring

    spring Administrator

    Gotta Quit,

    You are melting the pill under your tongue and holding it there for as long as you can, aren't you? When you say you popped one I had visions of you swallowing it whole.

    One more thing....don't waste your time trying to get "high" from Suboxone. I don't think it is possible. I am on maintenance and believe me I had to prove it to myself.

    Hope you are able to keep us posted on your progress even from the other side of the country! Sounds like you're doing it right!


    ~~~Do the right thing and risk the consequences~~~Spring~~~
     
  10. Nancy04

    Nancy04 Member

    Hello all,
    Today was my sub start, the doctor calls it Bup... whatever sp?? Anyway, I went into withdrawal about 3pm stayed in it until 6pm got to my scheduled doctor's appointment right at 6 and put the 2mg pill under my tongue within minutes I was fine, I couldn't believe it.
    I go back to his office in the am , he gave my husband one to hold for tonight, we speak with the doc around 10:00 tonight to discuss if i need it as of right now I am fine.
    In the morning, I go back at 9:30 am to get my blood pressure checked so forth, he seems very hands on which makes me feel he is concerned of my progress. He mentioned a 3 - 4 week regime, i am thinking from what i have read here if I am doing well at 2mg i mean I know that can change shouldn't i try to come of it quicker than 3-4 weeks . I mean isn't a shorter time better I was really surprised to get relief from 2 mg I was taking 25 (10mg) Vicoden a day. The withdrawal may catch up with me later but right now I am ok. What do you guys think about coming off before 3 to 4 weeks if I continue to do ok?? I really value all the advice given here I WAS SO ALONE in addiction everything did was a secret now i feel cared for . It' s all in the open here and having support from you all motivates me a LOT!! I thank you all for your advice.
    Nancy
     
  11. GottaQuit

    GottaQuit Member

    Hey,

    Feeling pretty good. I've taken three 8 mg pills since last night at midnight (yes, melted under the toungue). I have no plans to take any more. This last one I took around 6:00pm really helped a lot.

    The biggest symptoms are my legs kind of ache and I'm a bit anxious. Also, I miss being high. A little depressed but time will heal that wound I'm sure. This stuff works. Now the question becomes, how to get off of it and how lousy is that going to feel.

    I feel so good. Off to get some dinner. Thanks everyone.
     
  12. pinkie

    pinkie Well-Known Member

    If your aim is detox, then listen to your body before you listen to your doctor. There are a few of us here who have detoxed this way, and even my doctor, who is EXTREMELY qualified and EXTREMELY experienced detoxing people using Bup, could not tell me exactly how much to take. (By the way, my dr. prescribed 8mg tabs and directed me to split them. He prescribed this way because 8mg tabs are cheaper, and he wanted to save me the money.) I was surprised to find just how little I actually needed to stay well. The less you take, the closer you'll be to clean. If you start low, then you have less to wean off of, probably making your detox not only shorter, but easier.

    You can listen to your doctor if you want to, but I think there's actually better advice here, after all, we've walked the walk. How long ago did you say your doctor had detoxed himself using Bup? ;)

    Continued good luck, and hope we're of some help.
     
  13. mary

    mary Well-Known Member

    what is considered low

    mary
     
  14. fraction

    fraction New Member

     
  15. GottaQuit

    GottaQuit Member

    Okay...

    I'm home. I've been on Subutex since Thursday. In the last few days, 8 mg a day. So...how to get off this stuff?

    The only thing that's been a bummer is the A N X I E T Y. That's probably why I've been taking the dope in the first place. But I just want to have everything out of my system and start to live a normal life.

    Help!
     
  16. GottaQuit

    GottaQuit Member

    I have an appointment with my doctor next week, though I'm seriously thinking about finding a new doctor to help me with this detox process.

    My current doctor INSISTS you cannot break 8 mg Subutex tablets in half and take less. He says, "the medication will not work." So, after reading all of your posts, I called the company. While they didn't want to admit it, yes, you can break these pills in half and take them safely.

    About an hour after I take an 8 mg Subutex, I get high. It's a nice mellow buzz, but it's a high. That leads me to believe, I can take less. I took two 8 mg pills yesterday because of my anxiety. I've been dosing in the morning and now I'm going to wait until night so I can get some sleep. I know some days you might need more than less, but this is a little ridiculous.

    With all the dope now out of my system, there's no reason why I should be taking up to 16 mg of Subutex in a day. This is all a confused mess. I'm just doing what my body tells me for now and finding a new doctor. I don't want to be on this stuff for three months. I don't even want to be on this stuff for 30 days. As far as I'm concerned, heroin is out of my system -- let's get the Subtuex out of my system! Then find a way to deal with the Subutex wthdrawal symptoms in the most painless and comfortable way.

    Right now, I feel great. In a few hours, I'm going to start to get jumpy, I just know it. For now...I'm off to work.
     
  17. sleepless

    sleepless Well-Known Member

    Hi GQ,
    Sorry I have'nt checked in in a few days, but I have been reading your post and keeping track of what's going on...See, lots of us told you to chill out and relax that you'd be pleasantly surprise and that's exactly what happen eh.?...Of course you will miss being stoned, but that feeling slowly begins to drift away as the days roll by..It's kinda like missing a friend that has moved far away, you miss them like crazy at first, but then with time you don't find yourself missing them so much and you adjust to living life without having them around...I'm so glad to see you doing so well, I thinks that's GREAT, it seems like you are playing an active roll in your detox verses just laying back and letting the doctor call all the shots...That my friend is going to play a BIG part in your recovery, so keep on questioning things until you find the answers to all the things you are wondering about...If you don't feel comfortable with the doctor you have now, then I agree, find a new one, you've got nothing to lose only everything to gain...Keep up the good work!!! :)

    Take Care & God Bless :)
     
  18. pinkie

    pinkie Well-Known Member

    Low is a relative idea. It's hard to say exactly what anyone's dose should be. That's why it's best to start with a small amount and keep adding until you feel okay. One could try starting with 2mg, and every half hour to hour try another 2mg.

    As to the taper, if you are feeling buzzed, then you are taking too much for detox (I realize some people have said they you can't cop a buzz, but I have, so maybe it's yet another thing to chalk up to individual chemistry)

    If you want to try to taper yourself, just do it. You can start again by waiting for subtle detox symptoms to start, then do 2mgs at a time until you feel stabilized. Or you can just go ahead an decrease your dose dramatically, see how you feel, and dose from there. It's not rocket science, you just need to pay attention to how you're feeling, and be honest with yourself about using just what you need to stay well. The worst thing that can happen is that you may underdose and feel a little off for a short time. No biggy.

    I think sometimes what may be happening with some people, is that they are so panicked about it not working, or getting sick that they actually create symptoms in their head. This stuff decays really slowly, so chances are you aren't going to sink suddenly into a horrible bout of withdrawl. Just take it easy, and trust that you can do this, and you may not need to dose as high or stay on as long as you think.

    Try to find a doctor who will prescribe something for the anxiety, whether it's Clonodine, or a benzo (only use a little). It can really help, and is better than increasing your dose of Bup.

    Good luck.
     
  19. Bup4pain

    Bup4pain Well-Known Member

    "One could try starting with 2mg, and every half hour to hour try another 2mg."

    I disagree... Bupe takes 100 minutes to peak. With 1/2 hour dosing it's easy to do to much. Dose only up to once every 90 minutes.

    Also remember bupe has a 37 hour 1/2 life!!! You are STUCK with what you have taken for a LONG time.

    Go easy! ;)
     
  20. pinkie

    pinkie Well-Known Member

    Bup, you may be right. You obviously know more about the stuff from a clinical standpoint than I do. I can only go by my own personal experience, which told me more about the stuff than what my doctor prescribed...

    Like I said, I can't see how waiting really hurts even if it means hours, but if you are actually feeling horrible withdrawls (not side effects from Bup), and after 45 minutes have no relief from your first 2mg dose, then it would seem to me safe at that point to go ahead with another 2 mgs. Considering that sometimes even experienced doctors have difficulty getting us stabilized, (and, it would seem to me things like metabolism differences and liver (dis)function could interrupt the process) it's so hard to give exact directions.

    From my perspective, 2 mg one way or the other when trying to find a starting dose isn't critical. I just want people to understand that , in my experience (for what it's worth), the initial doses that I took ended up being way more than I needed. I took 2-4 mg every 4-6 hours for the first afternoon/evening, so by the end of the night, I probably had around 12mg in me. I did this completely out of fear of withdrawl. By the next day, I found that I only needed 2-4 mg every 24 hours. (Please be patient with my numbers, it was a while ago, and I can't remember exactly) If I had stuck to my initial dosing, or even started at 8mg/day, I think my taper would have been harder/longer. So, while it's important to take enough, it's equally important not to take too much. It's critical that we only dose in response to our bodies demand (remember to subtract a teeny-tiny bit of comfort, because this, after all, is detox, and comfort for us is being high).

    I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is that from my perspective, if your aim is detox, it's more important to respond to your body than it is to a schedule or system. If you wake up one morning, and were "supposed" to dose, but don't feel the need, THEN DON'T TAKE THE DOSE (or at least lower your dose) until you feel the need.

    In my mind, it's important to remember that we're all junkies here, with a tendency to overdo, and a big fear of withdrawl. So however one goes about dosing, it's really important to keep in mind our extremist tendencies and to pay close attention to how we actually feel, not how we are projecting or anticipating how we feel. Seems like we can placebo ourselves straight into withdrawl if we try hard enough, I wonder how much of the anxiety associated with early withdrawl is us winding ourselves up into a tizzy. It's really easy for us to follow our fear, but it's so much more helpful to follow our feelings, especially when trying to get ourselves straight on this crazy Bup stuff.

    Boy oh boy, that girl sure can talk, can't she? I'll shut up now.
     
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