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Incognito detox

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by movnon, Feb 3, 2004.

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  1. movnon

    movnon Guest

    I've been meaning to write this for awhile but never got to it. I've been reading your comments for awhile now and sure appreciate everyones input and outlook. I've been using Hyrdo. for years (5yrs. in total) mostly as prescribed but lately went awol and started buying off the net. To make a long story short, I got to the point of taking 10-20 Norco 10's per day(maybe more on some days) for the past couple of months. I finally said that I can't do this anymore or I'll end up a mess. I've got a great job and wonderful family that I refuse to give up. Anyway, I never wanted to go thru a detox doc. and have been reading up on bup. (from this board and others). I was determined to get myself out of the mess i put myself into. So I purchased some temgesic ( .2mgs. of buprenorphine) and told myself that I would not need to take 8mgs. 16mgs or more per day to detox. The funny thing is the 1st day off hyrdo. I took a total of 2.4mgs. of bup. 2nd day 4.2, 3rd. day 4. and today 3.5. and I've been feeling good. I didn't go thru any withdrawl problems and feel good. It makes me wonder why the docs in the US are prescribing such high doses. Anyway i've got enough temgesic for a few more days, i'm going to try to use less the next couple of days , like 2mgs or less. Then stop, all within a week. I thought this might help some of you that are wanting to stop but are afraid to do it. The bup works, of course i'm not off it yet but it works....
     
  2. spring

    spring Administrator

    Hi and welcome to the board. I am interested in hearing how your detox goes for you. Hope you will keep us posted.

    ~~~Do the right thing and risk the consequences~~~Spring~~~
     
  3. movnon

    movnon Member

    Thanks spring will do.

    Very concearned about getting off bup. ie. depression.
     
  4. ashley80

    ashley80 Well-Known Member

    Movnon: How are you doing? Have you been decreasing your bupe dose? I am down to almost zero now, and feeling pretty good. Hope you are doing the same. Let us know!
    Ashley
     
  5. sleepless

    sleepless Well-Known Member

    Hi movnon, welcome to the forum :) ..I know that this may sound some what tacky to *some*, but I'm gonna say it anyway because I want to to keep in mind that there ARE medications available to you through your doctor that will help you over the depression hump of detox or depression from life in general...Maybe you will be one of the lucky ones that suffer NO depression what so ever, but some of us have'nt been and are'nt members of the *lucky ones* club and have needed an anti-depressant to help us cope..This is just FYI for you to keep in mind *if* you feel yourself falling into the depression pit...Try not to fret about it right now though, cross that bridge when/if you come to it...You have enough on your plate right now to deal with, so try not to add insult to injury, k? Take it easy and take one day at a time and see what happen day by day, try not to worry about something that isn't effecting you as of right now...It looks like things are coming together and working out very nicely for you with the Sub., and I'm very happy for you..I think that the person(s) that researched Sub and invented it as use for people detoxing deserve the Noble Prize :) ..I myself have never used the drug, so I have no *personal* experience with it, BUT it has been a life saver for millions the world over and LOTS of my friends here on this board..I am very grateful to ALL the people that cared enough about us junkies to create a drug like Sub to aid in detox...The world tends to forget sometimes that junkies ARE people with thoughts, feelings, ideas, lives, families, responsibilities and obligations too, and think of us as a worthless waste of space on the planet...Thank God for those that see us as we are, as human beings and not just garbage that needs to be tossed out..Good luck to you and be sure to keep us posted on your progress...

    Take Care & God Bless :)
     
  6. ruby

    ruby Well-Known Member

    I am taking the same route as movnon....the doses I am taking of the Tems is about the same too. I coud not afford to goto a Dr., and i read up as much as possible on the Temgesic before I started it. I have some depression, but I have always been that way regardless of what "sober state" I am in. No WD's though, so I am happy about that! It is nice to hear of someone doing the same treatment as I am. The next stage is learning how to taper off these things. I would imagine it will be easy only taking 2-3 mgs/day. Take Care All!
     
  7. Bup4pain

    Bup4pain Well-Known Member

    Sleepless I have no clue WHY you are recommending Antidepressants to Movnon?

    I have read her post 4 times and she says: " didn't go through any withdrawal problems and feel good. It makes me wonder why the docs in the US are prescribing such high doses." I can't seem to find where she is having any "humps" or anything related to depression as a problem.

    Did you post this here in error? (I've done that ;))

    With all the know problems caused by antidepressants, including anxiety AND DEPRESSION. I feel this recommendation to her is inappropriate.

    I know for YOU they are helping, but please don't plant the seeds of more meds will help me for people w/o a depression problem. Any addict will start to think of the "easy way out." That's really not helpful. I know your intent is that of caring and being helpful ;)

    I'm not doubting your helpfulness and intentions. You are an inspiration to many. :)

    We all know part of opiate w/d and PAWS is a short term period of diaspora due to low endorphins. This is temporary and slowly resolves for 90%+ of us.

    In extreme cases antidepressants are appropriate, but recommending them to someone w/o a problem is strange. [:I] What's up? Are you OK?

    How can I tactfully ask this... With no offense intended. Please try not to take this the wrong way. Do you think you are trying to help validate your being on them by recommending them to someone? If others are on them with success will it make you feel better about taking them?

    Sleepless... You don't need to validate it to us.. WE know you need them, and they seem to be helping you. So relax .. take a breath and it's OK.

    I can fully understand your recommending the option of antidepressants to someone who has demonstrated a real NEED for them, as you have done on a few occasions. But this post of yours has me really puzzled [:I] And mostly worried if you are OK.

    Movnon,

    Yes, smaller doses of bupe can, and do work well. Here in the US the Medical community and the Government push doses of buprenorphine which will BLOCK opiate usage. At the very low, but still effective, doses of bupe it will not as readily block opiate usage.

    That is one of the reasons higher doses of bupe are "pushed", recommended, encouraged, and even forced by some.

    It's a personal pet peeve. Yes some people need higher induction doses for a SHORT time. But it's easy to cut the dose after stabilized. Taking bupe for longer time than a few weeks just create dependence on the bupe. Higher doses cause higher dependence which make more $ too.

    Many here were on very high maintenance doses and could have easily had similar or even better results at the lower doses. At the expence of the patient others benefit.

    Many have excellent sucess with a week to 2 week detox and taper, and at low dose like you.

    Maintenance at 6mg - 8 mg works just dandy, even 4 mg to 6 mg too. Full blocking starts at 8 mg - 16 mg a day. That's why you see 16 mg a day as the minimum standard maintenance dose. It's all about preventing the addict form getting a high off opiates, NOT helping them detox.

    Sorry for the rant. [:p]
     
  8. ruby

    ruby Well-Known Member

    Bup4...
    Thx for the post...I to was wondering why such a small dose was working just fine for me when most here are on a much higher one for the same addiction I had (some were taking much less hydro than me and were still on a high dose of Bup/Sub). Now I know why....which also explains why whenI tried a Bup detox before on a low dose, then relapsed, I still got high from hydro if I waited a day before taking anything. As for the rest of your post, I won't get involved in it as I have no real opinion re: AD's. Thanks again!
     
  9. movnon

    movnon Member

    Bup4..... I'm a he, by the way.... I appreciate your thoughts, no doubt I have thought about antidepressants but I agree w/you. I personally don't think I need them, I don't feel depressed at all w/1.6mgs. of bup so far today. Once I jump ship I may but I'll try and fight thru, don't want any more problems.

    Ashley--- I'm doing great, thanks for asking. I run out of bup. tomorrow but i'm don't think it will be an issue. If I do start feeling bad I'm gonna roll a joint....sorry hope I didn't affend....


    Sleepless---appreciate your concearn. Just don't want more problems and to me anti-d's may be just that.

    Ruby---keep it rolling girl. We both are on the same ship. Buy my ship is out of gas tomorrow so I'll let you know what its like jumping in....

    be cool.. and many,many thanks.
     
  10. ashley80

    ashley80 Well-Known Member

    Movnon, you go! sounds like you are ready! I myself am down to zero after only 9 days, so I'm sure you will do OK. BTW, I THOUGHT you were male, dunno why, from your posts, lol! Something about your economy of words, I guess.
    Anyhow, I hope you do OK, and am keeping you in my thoughts, OK? Well, I'm off to deal with the life that I have been ignoring for a year! Let us know how you are doing!
    Ashley
     
  11. sleepless

    sleepless Well-Known Member

    movnon, I did not intent it imply that you *needed* an anti-depressant, nor that you *should* be taking them as part of your detox and recovery..I was simply letting you be aware (by no means trying to discourage you, so plz don't think that) that even though now at the stage you are at, you stated ""I didn't go thru any withdrawl problems and feel good"" (which is wonderful :) ) depression tends to sneak up and bite you before to can blink...I was just trying to be friendly and share the same experience that a lot of us here have share (depression during & after detox), and let you know that there were/are options available to you if you need them...My bad, I guess now I should have added the word *IF* in my post to spare anyone any confusion of exactly what I was trying to get accross to you...It seems the attempt of being friendly and trying to help as best I could has been twisted and turned now into that I'm some sort of *pill pushing psycho* that needs to have others in the AD express...I'm sorry if my trying to warn about the possible depression meant something else, it honestly was not my intent...I will not make another attempt to give any advise, suggestion, or offer my help...I do however wish you all the luck in the world..

    Take Care & God Bless :)
     
  12. Crystal

    Crystal Well-Known Member

    I don't mean to butt in here and I TOO mean NO disrespect what so ever...but I do have to agree with Sleepless on this one.
    She didn't recommend the anti's....she(IMO) was saying that "JUST IN CASE" he may need them.

    Perhaps she recommended them because SHE HAS detox'd and KNOWS the depression that most of us HAVE.
    I know from my experiance with detoxing....after the 'Fun' of detoxing wore off....I found myself depressed and ON DEPRESSANTS!

    Anyway...no disrespect!

    Communicate,Validate and Appreciate!
     
  13. movnon

    movnon Member

    Sleepless...I didn't take anything you said to be pushing me on pills. I am concearned about depression and appreciate your comments.
     
  14. cgdg

    cgdg Well-Known Member

    'Ahem'...my .02...

    My doc put me on AD's (Paxil CR) about 1 week into my Subutex taper. I *don't* have a history of depression...at least not after my 6th suicide attempt (KIDDING!):D...and he was well aware of that fact...but he reco'd it to help deal w/the post detox anxiety (Seratonin..yipee!;)).

    WHAT?!?!? ANXIETY?!?! BUT-BUT...I ONLY SNORTED OXYCONTIN FOR A COUPLE YEARS??? WHY THE FCUK WOULD I HAVE ANY ANXIETY DOC...HUH?!?!

    As I slowly tapered the Sub, I was constantly reminded (OVER and OVER) of the "lethargy and depression ...lethargy and depression" I would endure once stopping.

    Did I say "lethargy and depression?"[:eek:)]

    Well, after tapering from 20mg down to .25mg over 33 days ...and then off...I had absolutely *no* depression, and only *slight* lethargy (a day or two).

    Hmmm...fill my trunk with peanuts and call me Dumbo...was it the Paxil, or my INCREDIBLE machismo?[:p] I'd like to think the latter (hehe)...but I dunno.

    Anyway, 2+ weeks after being CLEAN I decided to stop taking the Paxil...figgered it served its purpose.

    SO...my point being that short-term use of AD's for folks about to face life CLEAN for the first time in a while can be very beneficial...depression and angst *can* lead one to use again...and every consideration to avoid that happenstance (gotta love that word...just ROLLS off the tongue) *should be taken.*

    YMMV.

    Have a nice day.:)
     
  15. cgdg

    cgdg Well-Known Member

    *H-A-P-P-E-N-S-T-A-N-C-E.*

    (Sorry...I just HAD to.)
    [:eek:)]
     
  16. Bup4pain

    Bup4pain Well-Known Member

    Your post is interesting...

    Let me point out everything I said was from a positive point of view, out of concern.

    I did read your post 5 or 6 times. I still don't get it. I guess your highlighting AD's out of helpfulness is because depression is a concern of yours. Since it is an issue for you it's on your mind and you think highlighting AD's as an option in a persons treatment. I can accept that.

    I have NEVER told a person they should not take them. I have recommended that they educate themselves about them and explained why, and where to read about the opposing viewpoint. I RECOMMEND exploring other options and that the use of them should carefully considered.

    Just as you have the right to voice your opinion I have the right to voice mine. I have always voiced it in a way that is informative and biased on facts, experience, and is a viewpoint shared by many others working in the field.

    I am trying to prevent people from getting into a possible bind. The decision is still theirs. I just try to help them have all the facts in order fro them to make an educated choice.

    I stand by what I have posted here on the board and will respond to each one if you feel the need.
    I have stated that for some people ADs are appropriate and for a lot they are not. I still stand by that. Now to address your points:

    "So here again you saying that YOU know I NEED them and that YOU KNOW they are helping me is again an unfair statement to make, not only that but it's an outright lie"

    I only said what you have told us here many times. I accepted what you have said to be the truth. If it is a lie than what can I say? Did you not say you needed them? Have you not said they ARE working for you? Maybe I'm mixed up and it's Spring or some one else (I get you 2 mixed up sometimes)

    ""In extreme cases antidepressants are appropriate"" How can you disagree with that? Are you saying an extremely depressed person being given Ads is INAPPROPRIATE? This makes no sense.

    "*Common Since* John, ever heard of it? " (besides being argumentative, this jab, is not constructive) Dishing out AD's or ANY medication because a person is "just under the weather today" by MD's is INAPPROPRIATE and is the opposite of "common sense". That's the behavior which fosters addiction and seeking a pill to solve problems. So I contest my statement showed common sense not the lack of it as you said.

    "*Please STOP forcing your opinions down the throats of people that say they are depressed and mention an AD and you telling them that they are no good*" Again how am I "forcing them down the throats" of people???

    I am just posting information, providing the other side so to speak, biased on a large body of experience. Along with links to help the person MAKE THERE OWN MIND UP. How many times have I said "Read Read Read" ?? Posting information is responsible, repressing it is, well, a lot of negative things.

    "And quite frankly John, I am absolutely sick of you telling people how bad of a medication that AD's are, and you trying to convince people that it's wrong for them to take them...That is YOUR opinion, NOT a fact or the gospel..If someone else takes an AD and it works for them, then I think that's great, more power to them, if they take it and it does'nt work, then that's too bad,"

    Your are correct there is no problem taking Ads if they work. I also think that's great. But you point of saying if they don't it's "to bad" .... That "to bad" can be a devastating thing causing tremendous problems for some people. My educating them about the RISKS is responsible The choice is still theirs, but they should understand the risks. That's what I do. How is that a BAD thing?
    "I resent the fact that you attempt at EVERY given chance to make us feel weak or that we have failed in some way"

    I'm sorry that my posting information makes you feel that way. I honestly feel my posts have been informative and helpful with constructive intent. My posts are a genuine attempt to HELP people make the best choice fo
     
  17. Apheana

    Apheana Well-Known Member

    Oh no- I sense drama again. I guess I have to see this in two different ways- or three my response is to movnon first and foremost. I went through both detoxing and maintenance with bup and I can say that if you are STRONG enough to fight the cravings short term is the way to go. Emotional issues are a fact when comong off bup and in my opinion it is worse then coming off the opiate that caused our addiction in the first place. Right now I am on and off opiate pain relievers and it is scary being a pill addict myself and knowing what it will feel like when its time to come clean again. One thing I do when I am coming off of them now is to take bup in small doses as you have been for 3 days. Tapering every day down to 2mgs on day 3. Now, I went through this in detox many months ago when my habit was strong and my cravings heavy and I remember going home and feeling fine after the 3 day taper(cravings killed me-I relapsed and went back to using for only a couple weeks). The second time I opted for maintenance becasue I was scared of another relapse. Now- as far as using it for a couple months, torture to the soul is what I call it. As Cgdg has described his expereince was not that bad. He was diciplined and stuck to a regimine to get off the bup. I had a hard time with it and I suffered a lot. I also opted against anti-d's by my own choice- I tried so many and they made me feel worse and I couldnt handle the explanations that I will feel worse before better, I am an addict and I wasnt instant gratification. Anyway-
    This is my second answer to this post- WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN OPINION AND WE SHOULD BE GETTING OUR MEDS FROM A DOC SO WHATEVER OUR OPINIONS ON ANTI-D'S MAY BE, THEY SHOULD BE COMING FROM A DOC OR OUR OWN SOURCE OF RESEARCH. This board is a helpful tool but it is not the gospel. If we have opinions for or against certain meds from our OWN experience or maybe someone close to us I think in my opinion it is ok to share them.
    Second- WHAT I HATE ON THIS BOARD IS WHEN SOMEONE NEW COMES HERE FOR HELP AND A FIGHT OR TENSION OR ANYTHING NEGATIVE BREAKS OUT. I think if something was meant for Bup4 then write to Bup4 elsewhere. It chases people away to see nasty remarks. We are human and we get mad when there is a negative comment directed to us or a critisism human nature folks.
    My last comment from my own expereinces- Use bup cautiouslyand for as short as possible, take anti-D's if you choose to use it long term because in reality long term use of it it really can make you miserable. It seems as far as I can tell the ones on this board that use anti-d's with the longer taper feel much better in the end.

    ***Live, Laugh and Love***
     
  18. sleepless

    sleepless Well-Known Member

    movnon,
    Sorry buddy, I did'nt mean to leave your comments out of my last post :) ..I'm reall glad that you saw my post to you as exactly what it was meant to be...I hope & pray that you are infact one of the 90% that does'nt need an AD during your recovery, I'll be sure to keep you in my prayers about that...I meant to tell you that I'm thrilled that you are doing so well and *feeling good*, that's a very positive sign...Sorry that these things happen to explode in your thread, but when you have lots of people with lots of different opinions and points of view sometimes there is really no way to avoid it...I hope you won't let seeing these difference of opinions scare you off from the board, we are all pretty cool people when you get to know us a lil better ;)

    Take Care & God Bless :)
     
  19. pinkie

    pinkie Well-Known Member

    Here's a perfect example what happens when 1. we get lazy, tired or just plain over it, and don't disclaim in every post and 2. we fall victim to this impersonal venue.

    Sleepy,I think you're right about Randy, from my perspective anyway, he was blatently out of order, off base and offensive.

    Bup, with all due respect, I think Sleepy may have taken offense because, aside from the content, that particular post sounds kind of condescending. At least that was my first impression. I was actually kind of shocked when I first read it, it doesn't really sound like you. Usually I hear your voice as sort of factual and dispassionate, but this had a distincly different tone to me. I can't imagine you meant it that way, but I think that may be what got Sleepy's hackles up. We all know how it feels to be talked down to, and again, from my perspective, that's how it comes off. Anyone else read it that way? Sleepy, if I'm right and that's how you felt, maybe you and John might feel better if you talked about tone instead of content?

    Just another in a long line of buttinsky suggestions from the Pink zone.
     
  20. sleepless

    sleepless Well-Known Member

    Hiya Pinklady,
    I been missing you girl, you've been working too much lately and keeping your wisdom and wonderful insight all to yourself, you gotta sto doing that :) ...I sent you mail the other day just checking in on you making sure all was ok in your pink world, and letting you know I missed you :)

    You were 100% right pinkie as you always are IMO, that is exactly what got me in an uproar so to speak..And you were right about the fact that no one likes to be talked down to, not even *happy go lucky* me...I got quite offended as you can tell, but I'm willing to forgive and forget..If what John had to say to me is the only thing that is said that hurts my feeling this year, then I will be in excellent shape :D

    I hope work is done and you are all ours again for the time being :)...I'll e-mail you a lil bit later one about something, I first need to get caught up on a few things I've neglected this week from being so busy...

    Take Care & God Bless :)
     
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