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I'm kicking sub's! Advice please

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by Duramax, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    Hello,
    My name is "Scuba" I was using all kinds of drugs for over 25 years. At my worst I was using cocaine and pills. Valuim and hydro's and X. I won't go into a bunch of details about my drug use but it was bad. I OD'd several times, went to jail (but never for drug charges), ruined friendships and went through as much as 40K a year on drugs.

    I'm now on Buprenorpin 8mg a day plus a 1/2 more (a day) "as needed" I started off at 32mg a day 3 years ago and I've been cutting back for the last 5 months. My doctor says "you never need to quit them if you don't want to. Most people relapse." Which I fear. I took sub's 6 years ago for a while, quit cold turkey and did just that RELAPSED!!!
    Since getting clean from illegal drugs I've done better than most it seems. My wife, of 20 years, and I have had three children ALL BOYS :) I started my own trucking company and for the first 4 years it was great, hard work but great.
    THEN the nightmare has begun I feel like a slug all day, I'm emotionless (very abnormal for me) and I'm completely unmotivated and depressed! This just isn't me. I've always been a passionate man with hard work bred into me.
    I know its hard to believe but I've only been through withdrawals a few times as I have access to RX meds from doctors WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE A LICENSE! They have always been able to help out during the rough times by switching me to something else. A vicious cycle.

    I want to get it all out so as prescribed by my doctor I also take IM testosterone at 1cc a week, clodinine and trazo-done the last to only at bed time.
    My liver has been through enough! After this long I want/need to be free of this numbness! I feel like a zombie!!!!!

    My plan is to get down to 2 mg a day then jump. I will do a vitamin C chelation, colon clean, drink smoothies with tons of fruit, sweat in the TEXAS 100 or better heat and work out. If there is any other advice please give it. My wife, who is a godsend, has been worried lately that I'm "detached" and wants ME back. She has always been there for me as well as my entire family.

    Last time I quit I could not believe how bad the withdrawals were. Horrible. Worse than coke, valuim. However I had seizures from withdrawals every time and woke up in an ambulance more than once.I have never had seizures other than coming off pills namely valuim and strong opiates. As I'm an all or nothing type guy I've never tapered off, paid the price every time. Its like I thought I deserved the pain. I've never gone to anyone (barring doctors) for help. I got my self into this mess and I WILL pull out. Seizures are a real fear for me though since they took soooo much out of me. I CANNOT LET MY YOUNG KIDS SEE THAT! My oldest child is 5 and I'm afraid to scar him for life.
    Any advice place chime in. As a small business owner I've got a lot on my plate so I will check this nightly I don't know how much other time I'll have.
    Respectfully,
    Scuba
     
  2. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    In addition to above plan I will be having weekly blood work and and be closely monitored by a doctor other than the one who gives me subs. The dress in the part I can handle but this emotionless state very much so scares me as I'm usually quite lively!
     
  3. freakedout

    freakedout Moderator

    Hey Duramax,

    With your history, I would say SLOW down, research, put a plan together in a spreadsheet, and then follow it.

    Realize that 2MG of Suboxone is roughly equivalent to 100mg of morphine. The big difference is the half-life. Suboxone/bupe has a half-life of ~37.5 hours. This means that 37.5 hours after you take 2mg, 1mg is still active in your system. You take this sh!t daily, and it seriously stacks up. Take another 2mg 24 hours after the 1st one, you will have 3mg active in your system. Day 3, you take another 2mg and have roughly 4.5 mg active in your system.

    It really isn't simple to calculate all this stuff, the point is that your tolerance is way higher than you think, the Suboxone has kept you opiated for years but has probably kept you from experiencing the highs and lows of hydros, heroin, etc.

    The combo of the tolerance and being in a constantly opiated state for years is that you are in a perfect state to enter the fear/panic/chaos type of situation that often leads to continued opiate use.

    Forget the colon cleanse, herbs, vitamins, smoothies, etc. All wishful thinking and won't really help.

    What you need is a realistic and well thought out plan.

    * Get to 2MG daily. You should be able to do this within 2 or 3 months.
    * Stop taking that "as needed" dose. Total BS, sorry. With sub's half-life you are feeding a mental craving, not a physical one.
    * Take care of your body. This starts with nutrition. If you start the end-game with a healthy metabolism and eating habits, it is going go better. Google "marksdailyapple" or "perfecthealthdiet". This stuff REALLY does help unlike the smoothies and colon cleanses.
    * Start some sort of support NOW. Doesn't matter what it is -- connect with people and stay outside of your head as much as possible. AA, NA, Church, book club. Whatever.. connections and emotional support help.

    ** Learn about the liquid dilution taper and make a plan for a slow taper that starts AFTER you get to 2mg. Personally, I went to .025mg daily and did not experience acute withdrawals and did not realize I had experienced post-acute-withdrawls (PAWS) until they went away. This type of taper takes 6+ months.

    Information, research, and a scientific type approach is what finally helped me crawl out of the hole. None of the horrid withdrawals I expected ever actually happened. The FEAR that kept me on opiates for 10+ years was for nothing. Wasted years.

    Just google "suboxone liquid dilution taper" and do a little research. I will be glad to share what I did but don't want to write a book. (BTW-In a couple of weeks I will have 8 years completely FREE from opiates.) There actually is a way out!!

    Just my opinion and experience on this topic. Other folks have found other paths that worked for them.
     
  4. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    I agree with freakedout. I would spend your energy tapering from 2mg down to like .25mg or so then jump.

    Dont waste many months trying to get down to 2mg.
    I used to go from a dose of 8mg a day straight down to 2mg a day just about every single month with no real physical w/d to speak of...
    Tapering from 2 to 0 is the part that gives me trouble.

    Honestly, you could cut your dose in half today and not even really notice much of a difference. There may be some mental w/d stuff, but that will happen no matter how slowly you taper.

    It is recommended (by reckitt & most all sub doctors) to make 50% cuts in dose until you get down to 2mg. Then from there to make cuts in dose of 10-25%.

    If you were to spend a lot of time just getting down to 2mg and then jumping, there would still be a pretty significant w/d. 2mg is actually still a pretty good size dose of sub. It is equal to about a 60mg per day morphine habit (8mg a day of sub is equal to about 240mg of morphine).
    I honestly think you would go through much less physical w/d if you were to get down to 2mg a day rather quickly and then taper more slowly from there - going to 1.5, 1, .75, .5, .25

    Anyway, that is just my suggestion and opinion. I hope you continue to post here. It really does help.
     
  5. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    Thanks so much for the replies. I wasn't even aware of a luquid dilution. The mental part I believe I can handle. I will be doing my homework on it. I have cut down to 2-4 mg a day. I get the 8mg and break them in 1/2 then 1/4. I actually talked to my doctor this week and he is not willing to help with a plan of getting off. He brags about keeping people "sober" for years on SUBS. To him your clean while taking it. He said "if your struggling this much I'll need to increase your subs and trazodone to keep you calm."
    That said it will be the help from y'all that get me through this.
    FreakedOut, I understand what your talking about when you say I'm " you are in a perfect state to enter the fear/panic/chaos type of situation" for this is exactly how I feel. Just like I did back in the day when I KNEW I was trapped and had to feed the beast to get by. I just have this constant fear of impending doom! The subs used to make me feel good, you know level, but now I resent and I'm angry at myself everytime I place it under my tongue.
    I do eat well already and I'll have to admit I'm actually ripped and in shape...physically. Mentally, however, I've almost never felt like this!!!!! I desperatly want to FEEL again. ANYTHING! I've been like this now for months and it's wearing me out.

    Thanks for listening and I will indeed do my research into the dilution method.
     
  6. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    Althoughdn,t take any subs yesterday. Additionally, I have not doesed it today. I'm going to crash the level in my blood to where I think its about 2mg, or so.

    I have found a doctor to do blood work and help me through this. I had liver problems from you college years playing sports and using steroids and other drugs in abundance. I'm afraid some of the problems I'm having now could be liver related, as I'm having similar pains.

    Alth

    Alth
     
  7. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    White bars when taken 1/2 or 1/4 at a time at night and 2 10 mg blue Valium while taking 2 mg of buprenorphine have been doing the trick. Rx from my doctor of course.

    I know its dangerous but its working. I've been working 10-16 hours a day in the TEXAS heat.

    The bup is 2 mg every other day
     
  8. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    Thoughts?
     
  9. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    I've been honest with y'all but no one seems to be on here enough!
     
  10. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    Hey. Sorry I haven't checked in here in a bit. To be perfectly honest, I don't really have much experience with the method you are using. The only time I ever really skipped days was when I was using other drugs or when I wanted to get high on H...

    So what is your exact plan? Do you have any type of taper schedule set? Or are you just kind of skipping random days at this point?

    I think it definitely Italy takes a good amount of will power to skip days like that, so good job on that. Just make sure you have a plan in place and try to stick to it.
     
  11. Edwin C

    Edwin C Member

    Hi Duramax! Or maybe should I say Scuba, right? :biggrin: I’m also one of the people suffering from using drugs. Since I'm in college level, I learned how to use any kinds of substance. Let me share my worst experience regarding being drug addict. It's so hard for me to being drug addict because it makes me down :eek: and feel horrible :eek:... my everyday routine is the worst thing ever I'd experienced. My friends always gave me weeds, coke, horse, and crystal... I have always in my pocket or in may bag. Every time I feel down and my body gets weak I am always use all of those substance to get me better. But the bad thing was I can't forget the hard time that drugs gave to me especially to my brain and body!!! :eek: My body cannot function well and it's hard for me to breath! and the worst thing is when the doctor told me that I have blood clot in my brain. I can't even thought that it looks like this thing happens. :frown:
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  12. Lissy

    Lissy New Member

    Oh my goodness. It is the fear of withdrawal that has kept me on Suboxone. Please tell me how you did it. God bless and keep you <3
     
  13. coues1

    coues1 Well-Known Member

    Lissy,

    I am not an expert and I am only on day 14 of no suboxone or opiates. I think the first step is you being on this site. This proves you have the desire to stop. I spent hours reading posts and learning about what to expect. Here is my experience:

    I started on 16 mg 3 yrs ago. Like you, I sensed sub was not good and went from 6mg to ,25mg in 5 months. I did this with my Doctor's supervision. Any meds he prescibed to lesson. Wd's are with my wife. I have to go to her to get any WD meds.

    The WDs were not as bad as the acute opiate WD I had getting off Morphine. They are annoying and suck but manageable with a strong conviction to stop. Insomnia and fatigue was the worst for me. My post "7 days no sleep" explains my day to day rollercoaster.

    I say rollercoaster because of the fear, exictement, inconsistent turns, uncomfortable moments followed by euphoria. At the end of 2 weeks I am glad I took that ride and got off but not willing to do it again.

    Keep reading and getting advise from the Senior advisors who have made it.

    I hope all stays well and you do get off. One trick: Make your password something you want to quit for. My password is my boys names.
     
  14. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    I've done quitetestosterone testosterone well I'm down to 1/4 of a 8mg pill every 3 days.

    I found out I have thyroid problems and we are working on that.

    I increased my testosterone to 3cc a week. Everyone does it different but this is working for me. I'll be sub free by the end of next month.

    Ive had dizzy spells, even fainted a few times but now they have given me Lexapro and Xanax for anxiety. I take a .5 mg Xanax at noon and the lexapro in the morning and my thyroid pill with breakfast.

    Plus ive

    Ive

    Plus ive

    Plus ive
     
  15. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    This site doesn't jive well with my tablet but this is what's most convenient!
     
  16. Duramax

    Duramax Member

    Also for those skipping days. I tried going that route with no pleasurable results. Be careful, please.

    Due to lack of studied on liver damage with subs I HAD to quit. I'm one month ahead of schedule and one month from freedom.
     
  17. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    I would HIGHLY advise not letting yourself get hooked on those Xanax. They are an ok bandaid for panic attacks, but once your body starts getting used to them, benzos actually make the anxiety even worse. They lower the body's ability to cope with every day stress & anxiety.
    I was in them for many years. Getting off them was the best choice I have ever made! I have learned to deal with my anxiety using natural methods and it works much much better than the benzos... The benzos WILL eventually turn on you, and trust me when I say that you Do Not want it to get to that point. Detoxing the benzos was by far the worst w/d I have ever experienced in my life. I was in Acute w/d for well over 3 months. It was actually about 6 & 1/2 months that I was in w/d. It was just absolutely unreal...

    Good job with the subs. So you are taking 2mg every third day?
     
  18. coues1

    coues1 Well-Known Member

    Duramax,

    I am on testosterone as well. I had thyroid cancer that spread into my neck and lymph nodes on both sides of my neck. Thankfully all is good and will be going in for my 10 year check. I take synthroid since I no longer have a thyroid.

    I had my blood work done the last month I was tapering and my testosterone levels were through the roof. 1600 instead of 400. I did not change my dose. My doc said opiates and sub can lower testosterone. I will have my levels checked in another month.

    I was just wondering if your levels increased or will increase once you get off sub? I would like to know how your levels so. I am not sure if it was my thyroid or the opiates.

    Thanks and I know you will do well
     
  19. dumbas

    dumbas Active Member

    Me too. I weaned from 12 mg to 1/2mg. Took nine months allot of it bad. Now I am off about two weeks. Feel OK, not jumping for joy yet. But I made a plan and stuck to it, went down 1/2 at a time, felt fine, went down another half. Got real sick at 6 and 4 for a day or so. Missed allot of work over this crap. Now I'm on a medical doing the Hep-C treatment so I'm all messed up. Plus the loss of appetite has my blood sugar all over. Diabetic too. Had two hypoglycemic reactions in the last week. Got allot going on but I'm not going back. Hang in there, like someone said, make a plan and stick to it.
     
  20. coues1

    coues1 Well-Known Member

    Did opiates mess with regulating your blood sugar? That can be dangerous as you know. Do you have someone to help if you get a low blood sugar?
     

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