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Bupreneorphine Sub Forum Title Information

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by josie, May 5, 2007.

  1. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Arlene, I agree with you 100% AND I wholeheartedly support that you replied, regarding the methadone issue, with total honesty. I realize she comes from the pro-sub site, though I doubt she's a hit man from there as she sounds exactly the same there as she does here. I realize that they want to believe that those who have difficulty getting off sub or any maintenance treatment experienced that because they didn't follow some sort of exact protocol. That's their own wishful thinking, their own delusion.

    The bottom line is, the truth is the truth and the truth will prove itself in the end. Ratchett was always tactful when he explained his position over there and over time, I have begun to see some there who seem willing to listen to him and to consider his opinion and the information he presents. Many over there seem appalled by the attacks and name calling done. Which I applaud.

    I agree one should not be a doormat. But I also think it is unnecessary to get hostile and resort to name-calling as some did. I think we're better than that.

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  2. boinked

    boinked Well-Known Member

    /grabs popcorn
     
  3. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    :D:D:D:D:D

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  4. Pamela7030

    Pamela7030 Well-Known Member

    The paranoia here is immense; don't trust the federal government, don't trust drug companies, just trust ourselves as we are addicts (as you call yourselves) and we know the answers.

    Dee,

    I copied and pasted this from Josie's siencetific thread. This really ticked me off. I am a drug addict and I feel so fn lucky that I found recovery. I really do want the best for josie and her son. I just don't think that someone who is not taking the sub, should be giving out advise about long term use and not know the end result. I traded one drug for another. I have been reading josie's post from all over this board and it seems the same all of the time, like she is trying to get our duff up. Having said that, you are right. I do appologize for my last post. I do want to say that I beleive that sub was a great tool for me to get my head together and get in recovery, but I do not think that the new people who want to try sub should be lead to think that it is the wonder drug that I thought it was. Short and sweet and then get the f off of it. If your doctor wants you on sub long term, please think twice about this and listen to the horror stories on this board. Only another addict can understand and addict.

    Again, I am sorry for getting upset. I wasn't in a great mood and well, you know, sub withdrawl or the lack of will power to drop. Today is a different day and again I do appologize.

    Pam

    "Reach for the stars...You will at least end up among the clouds"
    Share your experience, strength, and hope with another and see the miracles transform your life!
     
  5. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    I always try to break this down logically over here... but they NEVER seem to get it:

    The site is called:
    Opiate Detox Recovery-
    Opiate (Opiate I guess refers to opioids: heroin,oxy,hydro, and other opioids LIKE Methadone and buprenorphine)
    Detox- Refers to detoxification- which means the REMOVAL of opioids from the body

    Recovery- which means putting some WORK into staying clean .. as in NO opioids???

    I mean if the site was called opiate detox/recovery/and sucking the teet of maintenance they may have some valid points.. But the last time I checked the word "recovery" was not a definition for the word "replacement therapy" unless some advocate or "pro" site was now writing definitions or trying to justify their addiction, or the addiction of another.

    You cant hand a alcoholic who drinks Vodka a beer and tell them they are "cured"

    "Why does logic get so distorted when the fool turns to justification instead of reality"
    Ratch 2006
     
  6. Allgood

    Allgood Well-Known Member

    Who is "they" Ratch?
     
  7. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Hi Pamela,

    Listen, honey, I know exactly what you're saying and I knew she was gonna start digging herself into a hole when she started posting the studies. We've all seen those studies here before. And, I know there are people from those other sites who like to come here and argue. But she's the same person there as she was here, a mother of an addicted son who wants to believe all the good news and wants to believe there won't be a problem down the road. And I think it's totally appropriate to disagree with much of what she said. I disagree with much of what she said. But I try not to resort to personal attacks on others. Casting aspersions on her as the wife of a husband with cancer was a bit much, I think.

    OK, everyone should do their own research, I'll go with that. Some addicts have such severe addiction problems they need to be on maintenance. OK. But the truth is that there is a big risk with using maintenance drugs. That's the reality of it. That's all. No amount of wishful thinking will change that. If people want to believe in wishing and magic, that's on them.

    But listen, Pamela, just because there's some bad news out there about maintenance treatment, it doesn't mean that you and anyone else who wants to can't get off sub or methadone. I got off sub and methadone. Arlene has gotten off methadone. Dave has gotten off methadone. Many here have gotten off sub and methadone. Is it a walk in the park? No, but it can be done, don't worry. That's the truth and the truth is what really matters.

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  8. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    "They" are advocates... Bup 4 lifers... Honeymoon period users...

    Or in general.. people who justify their usage.

    I mean Hydro made me feel good without getting me "too high".. should I justify my past usage by saying it keept me away from oxy or heroin?

    "They" in my book are ANYONE that feels they need to justify their sub treatment with decades old methodone propoganda. You know I could care less if people are on sub or not. But when they come around spewing limited and censored "science" and tell people, nothing is "proven".. and they are "cured" of addiction and the behaviors...

    I HATE beating dead horses..
    But if you shovel Twinkies into the mouth of a fat person who ate illegal non taxed ice-cream instead.. would you call them "cured" of obesity.. or did they just switch snacks?

    Tom,
    I know where you stand on this stuff... c-mon.. I think you know who I meant by "they"...

    Miss you my friend.
    G

    Fighting fire with fire can be a great tool.
    But isn't the goal to eventually get the fire to go out?
     
  9. Mic

    Mic Guest

    Perhaps some people show up on our doorstep, having spent time at a pro-Sub or pro-meth site, only to begin questioning their decision? Should we not treat them with the same dignity and respect? Before I reply to someone, I ask myself two things:1) will my post contribute to the situation, or will my post contaminate the situation? and 2) how would Dr. Scott respond, OR expect us to respond?

    Maybe we should get to know some of these folks first.

    Mic



    It takes what it takes
     
  10. Bup4pain

    Bup4pain Well-Known Member

  11. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Nice to see you, Tom:)

    Love,
    Ar

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    "Half measures availed us nothing - if nothing changes, nothing changes"
     
  12. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    Because sometimes when I do post at this site (which has been pretty rarely lately)... mis-information and dis-information seems to start running amok and I try to bring a "slap" of reality back into the situation... Trying to "sugar coat" my responses to people that may be harming others or giving other newer members pathetic excuses to stay on sub just a "few weeks/months longer" really bugs me... when I sit around and do nothing makes me feel useless. I step up and try to "change the things I can" .. I didnt realize that Dr Scott was now asking us to "tone down" our response beyond what the profanity filter already handles.. nor did I realize that my ultimate goal of getting people to realize that long term/indefinite maintenance may not be the answer or the cure to addiction. I dont call names, insult, make fun of.. I merely provide a very blunt way of showing my disproval.. Once some real long term results are published and the FDA requires some form of warning for buprenorphine then I will no longer have to beat the dead horse so often.
     
  13. Allgood

    Allgood Well-Known Member

    Nice to see you too Ratch, and of course I know where you stand on this issue. I'm not too far behind you ....

    Hi Ar - good to see you too!

    We have so many addicts here in WAY different stages of their addiction/treatment/recovery that these types of conversations are inevitible. I think its productive and much needed to be honest. Name calling I do not agree with though.

    Take care,
    T
     
  14. Mic

    Mic Guest

    I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just wrote...believe it or not.

    Mic

    It takes what it takes
     
  15. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Agreed[8D]

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    "Half measures availed us nothing - if nothing changes, nothing changes"
     
  16. boinked

    boinked Well-Known Member

    i guess it would all depend on the name.

    just try and remember; you cannot fix a broken finger with a broken finger.

    bol.
     
  17. Nomadic 1

    Nomadic 1 Well-Known Member

    I guess the reason I can't be a proponent of Sub is my personal experience. The other major reason is that I actually told a friend about it and basically sold him on the idea of a miracle drug. To do this to yourself is one thing but when you get somebody else on it and you see what it does.....it makes you very angry and guilty. My friend is off it but not without some big issues.

    2 for 2, me and my buddy both had serious problems with Sub. Good enough for me.

    nomadic(Paul)

    "Many a false step is taken by standing still." Arnold Glasow
     
  18. Skinny

    Skinny Well-Known Member

    Ratchett, I think I help get you guys out of the closet. Everyone used to be uncomfertable to tell it like it is. Now I see it everywhere. EXCELLENT. Maybe some poor souls will not have to go thru this horror just to be politically correct and not upset the ones of us ( self included ) that are xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxED!

    Sub = never going back to the life you once knew!
     
  19. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    I actually "sold" the sub/bupe train to a few too many folks myself during my honeymoon phase. There were three of us that started bupe in 1998, we all experienced the long term BS while still on the stuff. My "experience" comes from daily face to face contact with long term users as well as the hundreds of stories posted online... If I had a inkling or a shadow of a doubt that what I experienced/experience personally was just "my bad experience" then I don't think I could feel so strongly about sub/bupe... If there was a drug that actually worked long term and was a breeze to jump off, and had published long term reports.. then sign me up right now as advocate #1.. until that day comes.. "I am what I am"
     
  20. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    Hey Skinny,
    Yeah as time wore on.. and people were on longer, more people began to realize the actual reality. Sadly I think we are a mere handful of the victims. At least we are outspoken!

    Ratch

    Fighting fire with fire can be a great tool.
    But isn't the goal to eventually get the fire to go out?
     

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