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Bupreneorphine Sub Forum Title Information

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by josie, May 5, 2007.

  1. josie

    josie Well-Known Member

    This is people's introduction to a discusssion regarding sub therapy here? It clearly sets a disparaging tone regarding the use of sub therapy.

    "Buprenorphine/Suboxone
    Buprenorphine aka Suboxone/Subutex was thought of as a gift from God Himself when it was first approved in the US for addiction treatment 3 years ago.

    Now many are discovering that it isnt such a miracle drug afterall...."


    At the same time a gentler information lead in is on the Methadone Forum Thread title:
    Methadone Detox
    "Methadone has been around since the 1960s yet still remains a controversial subject today. An opiate used to treat opiate addiction, it is reportedly the most difficult of all opiates to detox from.

    Here you will find discussion, help, support, and encouragement from those who have detoxed from Methadone and are living drug free, people currently detoxing or tapering from Methadone, current Methadone patients, and others interested in the issues of Methadone detox and recovery."

    Just curious as to the reason......

    ~josie
     
  2. josie

    josie Well-Known Member

    ???????????
     
  3. Syd

    Syd Well-Known Member

    Josie, you just love a good fight, don't ya?

    You are missing a big point here. These forums are a place for Addicts to share & help other addicts. Since you nor your son are either, why do you bother? We don't need govt/medical stastics to tell us what we KNOW from experience. EXPERIENCE.

    I think there is much more to this story than meets the eye. That is why you are here. I had no doubts my Altace was working for my blood pressure. I never felt the need to go research it. But you must have some doubts or you wouldn't be here.

    Why did you not come here when it was suggested that your son be given sub? Why 2 yrs later?

    This is a DETOX forum, for the 10th time. It is called Opiate Detox & Recovery, not opiate maintainence. You are preaching to the choir.

    During my 8+ yrs on methadone, I was a productive member of sociery. Except, my joints ached, I gained 100 lbs. The prescribing Dr, told me that methadone did not cause these problems. Bullsh*t. Since getting clean, my bones hardly ever ache. I no longer crave sweets. And my mind is a clear as a bell. I am in therapy to find out why I used drugs to begin with, instead of buying into the idea that my brain is damaged & that I need more drugs. The brain has a remarkable ability to reconnect the synapses. It just takes time.

    And you may not consider him an addict but MIB does. Since you are in the medical field, you must know what this can do to him, years down the road.

    sincerely syd
     
  4. josie

    josie Well-Known Member

    My point is still if this is a recovery forum then why the negativity about sub and a gentler approach to methadone. I have no doubts that my son has made the right choice for him. I just still believe that it is doing people a disservice not to inform them that there is more than one way to heal.

    It is not my intention to fight; except for the rights of people to be able to make informed educated choices. There are people that come to this site that are looking for a path to recovery. They need to know all the paths available; not just what some choose to let them know. You can make assumptions as to why you believe that I am here; but what I have said is the truth. I am very passionate about helping people with substance misuse issues find help. The path that they choose may not be the same as my son has chosen; but at least they have the right to find out about all the options.

    I read the forum, I guess this is the mission statement:

    "We are here to share our experience, strength, and hope.
    The ODR Forum is dedicated to the purpose of sharing knowledge, experience, insight, support, and encouragement."

    I have shared knowledge, a little experience, support and encouragement to those seeking a path for recovery. So are you saying that bupe and methadone are not allowed to be discussed as a part of this forum as viable options to recovery? It seems to me that recovery can come in more than one way; unless of course this is a forum for AA. If that is the case perhaps that should be put in the mission statement so that all who come here will know that upfront. I didn't see where policy said that this site was only for those addicted; and you are correct my son is no longer an addict. At least SOMEONE finally got that straight.

    Congragulations on finding your happiness. That is all I want for everyone.

    ~josie
     
  5. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    There's more than one forum on this site.But they all deal with recovery.Indefinate maintenance is not recovery,with sub it is indefinate replacement therapy.If you believe that full info isn't given to those who ask, then you obviously have a different agenda because you havn't been reading the posts.At least the ones
    not directed at you and your definition of recovery......stay on a pill,you're doing so good,for as long as you need. The doctor said it was OK!
    For someone that did'nt have a problem with opiates,you sure have the addict's mind set.The ones with the experience call it stinking thinking! No one is judging you or your son for his choice. Just don't call it recovery, it's maintenance.AND you seem to do a very good job at enabling him to remain on a very powerfull opiate.No science,just opinion.
     
  6. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Hi Josie,

    Let me address the original question you asked. The actual truth is that the methadone forum here is much more anti-methadone than the sub forum here is anti-sub. On the methadone forum we have many people on methadone who are tapering, as it can take months to taper off methadone. However, the moderator there strongly enforces the regulation that there is are no positive posts made regarding methadone and methadone maintenance. We do help people to do tapers, even short tapers but positive references to methadone are not permitted.

    Now on the sub forum here it's a little different. There are no specific regulations regarding posts as they regard to buprenorphine/sub. If someone disagrees with you, it will likely be another member and you will not be restricted by a moderator.

    Now, there are three pro-methadone maintenance sites that I know of and there is the pro-sub site you referenced on the internet. There are also pro-sub forums on at least two of the methadone sites. I have only been here for 9 months so I am certainly no expert here but I will make an educated guess that this site was intended to be an alternative to those sites. We are not specifically an AA/NA site but there are AA/NA sites on the net.

    Because methadone has been available for many years and for the sake of preventing arguments between posters from pro-methadone sites and posters here, the methadone forum here is much stricter. Because sub has not been available for that long, the nature of the sub site here has probably been evolving and continues to evolve. In fact, as I mentioned in another post, the pro-sub site has moderated and changed quite a bit over the recent past.

    At this time, I would say that the general concensus here on the sub forum is that the safest way to use sub is for short-term detoxes and at low doses. The biggest risk seems to involve long-term use and the use of high doses.

    Now, the one thing that nobody here can say with any certainty is that your son cannot stay on low-dose sub for life. Nobody knows for sure whether this is totally possible with some people. We cannot say that he can and we cannot say that he can't. We go with the analytical percentages of experiences here, which show that it can be extremely difficult to get off sub for some people, that there can be very lengthy PAWS after sub for some people, and therefore, make recommendations accordingly.

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  7. slepinosa

    slepinosa Well-Known Member

    Josie,

    Maybe if you could see your son try to discontinue/taper down to zero off his suboxone. Then you can come tell us how gentle it is. What irks me is that the people who claim it isn't bad the brain, and that coming off of it is "mild" ARE THE ONES WHO ARE STILL TAKING IT--THEY HAVE NEVER DETOXED FROM IT.

    I think it is more conforting to delude oneself (or even more so, when dealing with the wellbeing of one's child) into thinking sub is good for you, therefore, you have a reason to stay on it indefinitely, for life possibly--you never have to worry about detoxing, cause they can stay the drug forever, without consequence.
     
  8. slepinosa

    slepinosa Well-Known Member

    WE ARE EDUCATING THEM ABOUT SUBOXONE; we are giving them a path. The only person I see making absolute claims is you; you are the one coming the closest to saying things about sub in a manner as if they were scientific fact. WE ARE SAYING RESEARCH BEFORE DECIDING; KNOW ALL THE OPTIONS; TALK TO THE PEOPLE WITH "EXPERIENCE."

    I hate when people try to analyze people, and usually will not do it; but your post screams out when you say how confident you are that your son has made the right choice. Maybe that is because you have seen him overdosed in the hospital near death, or witnessed other instances of suffering as a result to his DOC; but that is the only reason I can think of for someone being SO confident about the choices someone other than themself.

    So, don't get mad at me, but my analysis is that you are naturally afraid for your son and therefore you want you worry to be soothed, as the other sight did--and affirm the other sights correctness by hearing people here concur. But that is not what you are getting.

     
  9. Pamela7030

    Pamela7030 Well-Known Member

    YOUR SON IS AN ADDICT AND WILL BE AN ADDICT FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. HE NEEDS TO COME TO TERMS WITH THAT IF HE WANTS TO STAY CLEAN. I DON'T CARE WHAT THE THERAPIST SAYS. MOM DOESN'T WANT A LABEL PUT ON HER SON. POOR KID PROBABLY CAN'T EVEN SPEAK FOR HIMSELF. NEXT TIME HE GOES SOMEWHERE AND THEY ARE SERVING ALCOHOL, WILL HE BE ABLE TO SAY NO. IF HE DOESN'T SAY NO, WILL HE ABUSE IT? MOST LIKELY! WILL YOU BE THERE TO SAVE HIM? YOU ARE IN THE DARK IF YOU THINK HE CAN PUT ANY KIND OF MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCE IN HIS SYSTEM AND NOT ABUSE IT. EVEN SUB! YOU SAY YOU WANT TO HELP PEOPLE. YOU WANT TO CONTROL PEOPLE, NOT HELP THEM. IF SOMEONE DOESN'T LISTEN TO WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY, YOU GET UPSET. YOU ARE NOT ON SUB AND YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT AN ADDICT. YOU ACT LIKE AN ADDICT. YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH SUB, BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN YOUR SYSTEM. IT IS IN OURS AND WE ARE LIVING THIS. I WONDER IF YOUR SON TELLS YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?

    Pam

    "Reach for the stars...You will at least end up among the clouds"
    Share your experience, strength, and hope with another and see the miracles transform your life!
     
  10. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Hey Pam,
    Dad told me a long time ago: You can go get ALL the degrees and diplomas we want. But we can't go to a mall and win a debate with a mannequin:)
     
  11. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is curious.

    Interesting to me that we have a bunch of addicts here....yes addicts...who have changed their thinking. Rather a major event for addicts. Change.

    Members of this site have been exposed to both sides of the recovery *game.*

    While on long-term Methadone, I could have told you...ad infinitum...the benefits of Methadone. And you couldn't have convinced me otherwise. Stalwart in a belief system that protected my addictive thinking. No change...don't confuse with facts of what Methadone really does.

    Clean and sober...its a whole different ballgame. My sponsor once told me something. Something that I have adopted in my role as a sponsor.

    It is my place to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.

    Methadone/Sub are *comfortable.* And that is was is so disturbing about them.

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    "Half measures availed us nothing - if nothing changes, nothing changes"
     
  12. Pamela7030

    Pamela7030 Well-Known Member

    Your Dad is a smart man! I did let her get to me. I guess she will never get this. But you know, you couldn't have told me anything before I got desperate and entered recovery! That is where I learned to listen if I wanted to get better and be a better person. All I can do is turn it over and pray for them. She just doesn't see that we just don't want to see another addict suffer.

    Pam



    "Reach for the stars...You will at least end up among the clouds"
    Share your experience, strength, and hope with another and see the miracles transform your life!
     
  13. Skinny

    Skinny Well-Known Member

    Josie, come clean. Who do you work for? You have no idea what you are talking about. You are giving positive feed for Sub maintance. 99% of all people that do that will one day want off the shttt. It is then they will see the reality of this drug. Every long user will tell you to not use this drug as maintance! It will be the worst mistake you have ever made! Suboxone was approved over 6 years ago, not 3 and they will probally never take it off the shelf. One day they will figure out how to get acetaminaphin in it to kill us faster. You made comments about the conspiracy. You really have to wake up.

    Sub = never going back to the life you once knew!
     
  14. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Listen, I don't think Josie works for any type of pro-sub entity. If you go back and read her original posts, she simply related her experience with her son, was asking why we were so anti-sub here and saying wouldn't it be better for individuals to do research and choose their own options for recovery. It wasn't until people started attacking her that she began to get defensive, post studies, and dig herself into a hole.

    Do I agree with everything she says? Of course not. But I think she is simply lacking information. And I do not hold the mother of a young addicted son to the same standard that I would hold an addict on a sub honeymoon who comes here and claims it will be easy to get off sub.

    She NEVER said it would be EASY to get off sub. I'm sure that she's hoping for the best, down the road, for her son.

    Are you saying that mis-informed family members have no business being here? Why not just start out with trying to educate them? Without resorting to casting aspersions on their role as a mother and as the wife of a cancer patient?

    And while we're at it, there ARE long-time members here on sub maintenance who realize they may not be able to live clean off sub and have serious concerns about this. Should they not be posting here either?

    Why so angry? Sure, I'm angry at methadone. But when I really reflect, I'm mostly angry at myself. Nobody held a gun to my head and forced me into the methadone clinic. I would rather educate people than take my anger out on them. I have said a few things myself to some posters here in the past that I now regret. I constantly attempt to question my motives for doing things because I want to be a better person.

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  15. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    While I usually agree with you, Dee...this is one time we're going to have to agree to disagree.

    The poster in question brought a specific agenda to the table. Stated as fact....while indeed a great deal of its fiction.

    If pro-Methadone advocates began posting again on the Methadone forum touting the benefits of Methadone, how would you feel? I can answer for myself....I get angry, sad, amused...but it goes back to anger.

    And fortunately for we on the Methadone forum, Dave has removed the possibility of the *it saved my life* claptrap from invading us as it used to.

    There are sites and there are sites. Different sites serve different purposes....and frequently....the twain shall never meet.

    Love,
    Ar

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    "Half measures availed us nothing - if nothing changes, nothing changes"
     
  16. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Hi Arlene,

    Listen, I agree with the posts you wrote to her, as I agree with most of the posts written to her. It is when people resort to accusations and name-calling that I disagree.

    I understand why Dave has made the restrictions he has on the methadone forum. It's more of a black and white issue on that forum. As far as I know, this forum is not a 100% anti-sub forum. There are alot of gray areas here.

    So, what's the answer? Are we going to forbid everyone and anyone who disagrees with us or is misinformed from posting here? To prevent a feeding frenzy? That would, of course, be up to the administrators and the moderators to decide and certainly not up to me.

    I would suspect the powers-that-be have not yet decided if there is a specific stance regarding sub here yet.

    Yes, I would also become extremely annoyed by pro-maintenance people from other sites coming over here just to rattle our bars and run back over there and gloat about it. But does that mean that every single person who comes here is one of those and not possibly just misinformed and deluded?

    I have absolutely no problem with disagreeing with those people and explaining our position. But name-calling and accusations? Yeah, I do have a problem with that. I highly doubt that would be encouraged in the Big Book either, right?

    dee



    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  17. Ratch

    Ratch Well-Known Member

    Obviously they are here rattling us right now. I frankly dont understand why most of my posts get deleted here (excuse me I will coin the proper phrase "moved to oblivion") In response to these "pro-sub" messages. I live with the "truth" about this med every single waking second, and when I try to share my experience in a straightforward manner it usually gets "moved". I am not sure if this is to antagonise me, to "punish" me for starting another forum where my posts NEVER get "moved", or to simply offer a sideways proverbial "slap" to let me know that my efforts are no longer welcome.

    How about a response that doesnt involve "moving" this post.. Or some nasty remarks in my private inbox here?
     
  18. Mic

    Mic Guest

    Let me know if/when this happens and I'll look into it. I don't recall seeing anything in the Mod Forum (authored by you) in many months....

    Mic


    It takes what it takes
     
  19. sudokudee

    sudokudee Well-Known Member

    Ratchett, I have always thought that your posts were rational and informative. I have followed your rational posts on the pro-sub forum and have seen where you were attacked over there in the past. I think it is clear where you stand on sub but I have not seen you attack people, just their misinformed opinions. And I have nothing but respect for you.

    I understand that people are angry. I have anger issues myself about this stuff. But I get concerned when people get angry at those who post bad news about sub and also at those misinformed about sub. It's just anger flying everywhere. I understand it but it won't fix anything.

    dee

    Dee--off MMT 9-12-06
     
  20. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Right...Big Book speaks of principles before personalities.

    It also says "we are not doormats."

    And sometimes, the concept of principles before personalities collide....but then again, that's the state of the human condition. :)

    Arlene F.
    Exodus From MMT;12-25-02
    "Half measures availed us nothing - if nothing changes, nothing changes"
     

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