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A Drs. Podcast regarding sub and problems with long-term use

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by Sluggo, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. Cristene23

    Cristene23 Member

    oh.. and i've been on suboxone for 5 years now.
     
  2. Ali_Montella

    Ali_Montella Well-Known Member

    Welcome.

    Well how did u taper? its quite obvious having been on sub for 5 years and tapering a wee bit too fast will put u in full blow withdrawals.

    Most people say methadone is more harder to quit then Subutex/Suboxone/Buprenorphine/Buprenex. Can u state exactly how u tapered down?..

    I was also on Subuutex for nearly 5 years but took nearly a whole year tapering down. Took me 3 months just to go from 2mgs to 0, which included skipping/alternating days. I jumped from 0.2/0.1 but we're lucky in the sense we have 0.4mgs Subutex and 0.2mgs Temgesics..Even cutting the 0.4mg tab by tiny incraments saves lot of intense withdrawals and bit of PAWS in my opinion...It wasnt at all that bad how i thought it will be...I didnt get the depression i feared, probably because i tapered so slow at the lower doses that i was use to a little bit of reality hitting me, so when i did jump i was too used to feeling the minor symptoms that it didnt effect me all that bad. Also depends on the life style and any issues you have in life together with the frame of mind..But none the less being on sub for 5 years and doing a quick taper from 2mgs to 0 will give one intense withdrawals. Thats if you did that quick taper like that. Maybe start your own thread?. There will be folks here to try to help u taper the best way possible.

    Wish u good recovery.

    Peace!.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2010
  3. Cristene23

    Cristene23 Member

    thanks for your reply. actually-my dr told me to go from 2mg's to 0 and that was NOT the best idea. i have one bottle of the 2mg's left and my dr pretty much told me good luck. god. it's been a long time since i've been dope sick. but yes-tapering a little slower will definitly be the best idea. thanks.
     
  4. tenn_smoothie

    tenn_smoothie Well-Known Member

    is there a transcript of this interview somewhere ??
     
  5. StrwBerry

    StrwBerry Well-Known Member

    I'm really grateful to the one who originally posted this. So thankful I found this information sooner rather than later. Thanks.
     
  6. longhauler

    longhauler New Member

    Im pretty sure THC is a partial agonist in many cannaboid receptors in the brain, and even if im mistaken Im sure there is at least another dozen examples of partial agonists in nature. That sounds like pure speculation to me. It sounds good and all, nobody wants something that's unnatural, right?
    I dont think half the **** we consume occurs naturally, So why should bupe be any different? Maybe Im missing something but I just dont see the relevance and if its there can somebody point me toward the study that proves it?
    Ive been on Sub maintance for about 7 yrs now, and when it first became available I remember reading it was approved for maintance, the overall side effects are way less then methadone( and I did relapse 3 -4 yrs ago and switched to methadone and it almost killed me, I then did inpatient for 6 weeks, relapsed after 9 months and wound up having such severe anxiety attacks I relapsed and didnt waste any time before getting back on sub ).
    So maybe Im missing out on "feelings".
    The bottom line is im not out robbing or engaged in illegal activity, Im able to live a normal life, take pleasure in the simple things like a good meal, music , love, nature.... honestly I dont feel any less than when I was "clean" except for anxiety and cravings that preoccupied my every thought.
    I wish I didnt need to be on medication, but Im not going to hate myself because I am. I am anti-social and have always had difficulty forming lasting relationships, so maybe I am an exception, but Ive seen so many ppl go thru such hell - losing yrs of their lives, when it might have been avoided with medication and counseling.
    Im not a doctor, but I do believe that ppl should have the right to do what they want with their own body if it isnt harming others. If that isnt a right we have as humans than ban alcohol and cigs ASAP and lets lock up 80% of the population.
    Sorry to get off track, but I thought this board was about dealing with opiate addiction; with an end goal of leading a productive, happy life. Not just getting off all medication even if I dont feel comfortable doing so.
    To hear any doctor put down bupe maintance like that angers me a little, because without it ,Id be in jail, an institute , or dead.
     
  7. freakedout

    freakedout Moderator

    Hi friend and welcome to the forum. This forum, by the very nature of its name, is about getting OFF of opiates. If you are happy taking them and things are working out for the better in your life, that is awesome. I agree, if you are not harming anybody else what you do is your own business. If you ever decide that you want to get off of Suboxone, the advice and support you can receive here could be very helpful. Things change. I thought Sub was wonderful at first but it started causing ME more problems than it was worth. Everybody is different though. The whole YMMV thing.

    Best wishes,

    freak
     
  8. jdude

    jdude Well-Known Member

    Welcome to ODR ...opiate detox and recovery..longhauler. You're not the first member to come and sing the BMT praises. Or the first to try to equate harm reduction with recovery...yet something precipitated you to search opiate detox?

    Godspeed in your quest.
    Jay
     
  9. guinevere64

    guinevere64 Well-Known Member

    It's too bad the link to this podcast is no longer active.

    Wanted to let folks know about this interview with Dr. Scanlan... with thanks to Chachie for the motivation to get it filed. --G
     
  10. hadenough

    hadenough Well-Known Member

    Personally I agree with much of this docs article. It fits for me. But then I like reading just about anything these days to do with recovery ..Some I can relate to some doesnt fit for me ..But knowledge is power. Thanks to all...
     
  11. philbrown_23

    philbrown_23 Member

    I whole heartedly agree. around here (vermont) the doctors will straight tell you it is a long term (5yrs+) treatment. My doctor would have tried to keep me on it longer, in fact when I went to aks for clonidine he told me he would gladly put me back on bupe after my insurance kicked in.!!!!!! I was up there pouring my heart out tellin him I'm tired of being a slave to bupe just like I was a slave to heroin and shooting, and he says well I can put you back onto it as soon as your insurance works out.
     
  12. guinevere64

    guinevere64 Well-Known Member

    Dr. Scanlan also gives his opinions in this piece I wrote, appearing today on TheFix.com... along with Dr. Jeff Junig, who uses BMT in his Wisconsin practice, and some patients who have gotten in touch with me via my blog. Check it out... --G
     
  13. Toughbook

    Toughbook New Member

    Reading this kind of stuff scares the crap out of me. I am almost finished with my physical W/D process of being on Suboxone for 4 1/2 years at 32mg daily! Yep, you read that correctly. I was not able to properly wean myself off of it either. To say my Dr was irresponsible is an understatement. My life is living hell these days. The insomnia is about to drive me crazy. Yes, it is a miracle drug in the fact it will stop you from desiring OP's, but it is so much harder to come off of.
     
  14. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    Sube is a partial agonist. That I thought means that it does not bind to all opiate receptors (Mu1, Mu2, Delta and bunch of other opiate receptors) .

    Raw opium has over 14 different alkalines that would activate all opiate receptors, hence a full agonist.

    Somehow the brain does not develop tolerance to Bupe as fast as it does to other opiates. One can stay on 2 mg dose for rather a long time and feel perfectly fine (as was my experience) , but eventually , after few years, a dead end is reached.

    The medical science does not yet fully understand the exact way that Bupe works. But it is a known fact that non-endogenous opiates will not only stop the natural endorphin production of the body but also mess up the balance of other neurotransmitters such as Serotonin, Dopamine, etc. Any mind altering drug, for that matter, will disturb the eco system of our brain chemistry, hence the WD symptoms once such drug is discontinued.

    If I had to do it over again, I would just taper down my opium intake and then quit. I would not go on Sube. It is simply replacing one non-endogenous endorphin delivery system with another one. (It did however cut off my psychological need of smoking raw opium, hence staying away from friends or circumstances involving the opium pipe) .

    Only other benefit I would attribute to Sube is that depression was not on the WD menu. I am over two months after my last .25 mg dose of Sube and I hope this statement will hold true. Others on this site confirm this as well (severe fatigue yes, but little or no depression). But may be the same can be obtained by going on antidepressants before quitting any other opiate.

    To those who complain that Sube is harder than any other opiate to get off from, may be they should go back on their original DOC, stay on it for few months and then try to quit.

    Bottom line, they are all very difficult to come off, but not impossible, many have done it and so far I can take what is being thrown at me (just hope depression will not somehow poke its head out).
     
  15. ontoolong

    ontoolong Member

    Putting my thoughts out there!
    I am a long term bup user for pain, This is how my addiction started, used to work out all the time, healthy girl, fit, feeling wonderful!! I slipped one day lifting weights and the bar bell came down on my shoulders. The doc gave me Lortab, then Percocet, the Vicodin. Well, the pain was gone when I took one AND ****, I felt great in those first months, the feeling was the best ever I thought I was superwoman. Well the pain got worse cause the pills stopped working as well, as I loved that feeling they gave me. I found out over time that I just could not keep that feeling too long unless I took more and more and more and more, the addict was awakened :( So I asked for help, went to rehab, was detoxed, and then the day before I left (this quack, I did not realize this then) gave me sub (how I hate him, but I took it, I trusted him, was told how much better it would be) Anyway I got out went to pain management, was totally honest with the doc about my addict person living under cover in my brain ( I like to say that is another part of me, boy she is strong willed too!) This doc moved me up to 32mg of the sub, "it will work for the pain and also keep you from wanting other drugs". Well, I can tell you I am in still in pain, but have learned to live with that over the last several months, (better than I ever have, Motrin really works, you just have to believe it works. Try this, have someone give you a motrin in disguise, make it so you think it is a pain pill somehow and you will actually get a high from it, this is real, the brain thinks it is something like a vicodin and will actually release endorphins, that is if you have been on sub for at least two years, the sub block those working!) So almost six years later, I have to take something everyday to go number 2 or I get so bloated I look 7 months along, I have REALLY bad short term memory, depression, lack of zest, insomnia, no real concept of feeling a happy vibe, those receptors I turned off, ( I hope they come back at some point when I am off the sub for a while), get the shakes quit a bit, I feel like a fog is over my head and get really bad headaches that send me to the bed for a day. SO for long term use, this stuff does mess with your brain, it is not working like it used to. I took a test of basic GED skills ( I have a bachelor's) and I can tell you a lot of things are missing in that brain. You cannot tell me that it is NOT from the sub, I have looked high and low and talked to countless people. For me the side effects are ruining my life, I had surgery and due to the sub I could get no relief from that pain and the recovery was agony, but that is alright too at this point, I found out I lived through that, pain is something we can deal with if we have too, if it gets to much then you will pass out or croak, which I would rather do then take another opiate. I will be real, once I get off this, if there is a reason, a real reason that I need something for pain due to an accident or surgery or something, who ever is treating me will be told by me that I am an addict, you can help with the pain, but do not let me dose myself or send me home with pills, I will eat them all too soon and be in trouble, someone else will have to lock them up and dose me if that is what it takes.
    Ok, I am rambling but to end it, sub side effects are bad, and for me I have to get off to get my life back. It is nothing but a cop out, a replacement for another drug. If your own life is not enough to keep you out of jail and off the stuff you get on the streets, then take sub for the rest of your life but at some point you will pay for it, one way or another. Here's to sobriety, no matter how hard it is, and it will be hard. I am down to 2mg and am fighting hard, I am expecting the worse and am armed with emotional and medical support to do this.
     
  16. lita14

    lita14 New Member

    I have been on Suboxone for 7 years. I don't know anyone who has been on it as long as I have. This thread is 4 years old.

    Has anyone been on Subox for as long or longer? If so any long term effects? Thank You
     
  17. Lita,,
    i realize this thread is old..did u plan on sub maintenance? I started a thread 45 days on sub because I started on methadone treatment and it ended after 12 years and many times of trying to get off. Are u having any side effects?
     
  18. dumbas

    dumbas Active Member

    Thank you for the update. You are so correct. I don't care, I am not going back. Been 8 days now, I feel OK. Not sleeping at all. Took a half of my dog's zanax for thunder. I slept but did I delay my recovery? I have a lifelong history and was clean for 16 years till this operation. But I can handle it. Look where I am now. SO full of gilt and shame. I am also undergoing Hep C treatment right now and I am a diabetic. That has also caused issues. Thank the Lord I am on a medical eave for the liver so I can concentrate on getting of this crap. God has been good to me. ANd I am not sure He is quite done yet. Thank you brother.
     
  19. dumbas

    dumbas Active Member

    Very happy it is working for you. I have friends on methadone and sub for years. Glad you are not dead or in jail. Do what YOU have to do brother.
     
  20. dumbas

    dumbas Active Member

    Great job. Keep it up. I'm 8 days off. Went down 1/2 at a time. Took months. I still feel crummy but not bent over curled up throwing up sick at all. Have no appetite and sleep in precious. But it will pass someday. May take months but it will pass. Very proud of you. I am dumbas because I got caught up in this thing.
     

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