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  1. #13
    josie is offline Senior Member
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    Perhaps providing correct information can be done. I don't think that the naloxone in suboxone is even activated unless someone tries to use this medication intravenously. The bupe in subutex by itself is enough to cause precipitated withdrawals if a person is not in adequate wd at the time that they start this medication. I don't think that it has anything to do with doctors; but rather the FDA trying to provide what they deem a safeguard to prevent IV use of this medication. So for someone using suboxone correctly; I don't think that there is really a point of having naloxone in it.

    Many doctors will not prescribe subutex because of the increased potential for abuse. Very little of this medicine is absorbed when swallowed so you don't lose any of your dose by not swallowing the leftovers and subsequently avoid the headaches that some experience from naloxone. You do not get wd by swallowing the leftover residue from sub. That, I know, is incorrect information.

    ~josie

  2. #14
    yoyo is offline Junior Member
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    If one has recently had anything to drink prior to taking this medication, it will dissolve very quickly. Anyone who has taken it in the morning without anything to drink before knows that it takes much longer to dissolve. It is at this time that you will absorb the majority of the medication. If you, however, have just consumed something to drink, then the medication dissolves very quickly and in this case, it does matter whether you spit or swallow in terms of preserving the medication. This is because, as long as you don't drink any thing for 30 minutes following the medication, you will still absorb some of the medication remaining in your mouth/throat/esophagus. Bupe has poor bioavailability orally because it is all absorbed by the GI tract, but if it is all absorbed before it reaches the GI tract, then it won't be wasted. It is best to hold the saliva as long as you can after the tablet dissolves, then swallow it. Do not drink anything or smoke for 30 minutes (actually, you should not smoke for 30 minutes prior and 30 minutes post - or not at all). The reason you don't smoke is because nicotine is a vasoconstrictor and will hence impede some of the absorption. In addition, the other posting is correct in that the naloxone is not going to be absorbed unless you intend to use subutex intravenously. Most people (not all) who complain about the naloxone, unfortunately, are simply wanting subutex so that they can inject it. [:0]

  3. #15
    Bup4pain is offline Senior Member
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    What a load of crap. .....

    MANY MANY people are very sensitive to the Naloxone in Suboxone. It is absorbed (in small amounts) but IS still absorbed.

    Shooting bupe is a load of crap... Ask the 1000's of Buprenex "addicts" who have played with bupe for years and years. ... It;s no big deal actually not pleasant.

    It was put there by the demands of a punitive government to HARM addicts who are on street opiates.

    Let's see if you shoot subutex, or buprenex and are addicted to full agonist opiates it puts you into full blown w/d .... No naloxone involved with that...

    OK... Diversion of sub and iv usage... IV usage vs IM usage is no different... Also if already addicted to bupe you don't get "high" when using it.. right???? Ceiling effect and no risk of ODing... (all the reasons it's approved)

    Shooting sub is a real waste of time (and bupe) You can abuse the HE double L out of suboxone anyway (If yo know what to do)

    Naloxone is making people SICK... it is being "forced" on people who do not want to take it .. It has NO medical use in the medication. It breaks down into a toxin in the pills during storage and manufacturing

    Suboxone is being diverted even WITH naloxone in it ... It is being abused with naloxone in it. Just like acetaminophen in Vicodin and Perks... It was put there to prevent "abuse" by killing addicts. Hey, dead people can abuse drugs.

    "Acetaminophen poisoning has become the most common cause of acute liver failure in the United States," report the authors of a new study in the December 2005 issue of Hepatology, the official journal of the American Association for the Study of Liver Diseases (AASLD).
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=34287

    Been there, done that, wore out the tee shirt.

  4. #16
    yoyo is offline Junior Member
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    I was not intending to offend any one by writing what I wrote. As I said, most people, not all, may do this. As you said, it serves no purpose to inject Bupe because all it does is make the effects hit you faster, but they are no more intense than if you ingested the medication subligually. However, addicts are addicts are addicts. (I am speaking from experience-myself included, I am in recovery as well). You are also right that people can abuse the suboxone by either injecting it and simply waiting for the naloxone to subside or taking lower doses subligually and spiking the dose at intervals, or spacing the doses until withdrawals set in. I do not disagree with that, that is why it is a C III medication with the same classification as Lortab. The acetamenophen issue, unfortunately is different. People usually get sick or die from acetamenophen poisoning due to the long term effects of abusing preparations of hydrocodone/oxycodone with acetamenophen. These medications were not intended for people to take 30 a day, hence taking a minimum of 15,000mg or 15 grams (which sounds even more horrifying) of the acetamenophen. You can't rightly blame the MDs or pharaceutical companies for that can you? I mean come on, what do expect the government to allow you to do, just give you a full agonist preparation. That would be an easier way for people to OD and die and would feed more into your conspiracy theory than using proven, safe preparations of medications for people. The two issues of bupe/naloxone and narcotic preps with acetomenophen are not even a basis for comparison in your argument in my opinion, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours and am happy to debate the issue.

  5. #17
    dogpaw Guest

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    Bup is on the money here. And, for anyone who thinks naloxone has no effect when taken sublingually, think again. I don't care what propaganda Reckitt-Benckiser puts out...non-injectors on Suboxone have a much harder time with wd's than people on Subutex or Temgesic. No amount of info provided by the manufacturer can substitute for experience.

  6. #18
    yoyo is offline Junior Member
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    Yeah, I guess if you are taking a massive dose of sub, you would probably feel like crap, but this is two fold, you probably are absorbing some of the naloxone, but it is likely due to the ceiling effect. (and, oh that real big one, the psychological effect of thinking the naloxone is intercepting the effects of the bupe)--I have taken both numerous times and can tell no difference in either one and neither can most people that I know who are on it. [:p]

  7. #19
    dogpaw Guest

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    quote:Originally posted by yoyo

    Yeah, I guess if you are taking a massive dose of sub, you would probably feel like crap, I have taken both numerous times and can tell no difference in either one and neither can most people that I know who are on it. [:p]
    Exactly, because they are on it, not withdrawing from it!

  8. #20
    yoyo is offline Junior Member
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    Right on. I do notice that sometimes the sub sometimes seems to work better than other times. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this. It is rarely consistent from dose to dose, but I think this has something to do with the absorption rates. It always seems to work better in the mornings. Anybody else notice this?

  9. #21
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    Ratch is offline Senior Member
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    "Naloxone has no other use in Suboxone other than preventing users from injecting the Suboxone in the body. However, the Naloxone in Suboxone does cause side effects in some people. These side effects include, but are not limited to, asthenia, chills, headache, infection, pain, pain in the abdomen, back pain, withdrawal syndrome, vasodilation, constipation, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, insomnia, and sweating. Other than patients who might inject opiates, there is no reason for Naloxone in Suboxone. Because of these side effects, the FDA recommends that doctors begin any chemical detox using Subutex, which does not contain any Naloxone. By this manner, if for some reason the doctor moves the patient to Suboxone and the patient begins having side effects related to Naloxone, the doctor can easily move the patient back to Subutex.

    For these reasons and others, it has been reported that Subutex is easier to withdraw from than is Suboxone."

    Here is where I got the above paragraph
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone



  10. #22
    yoyo is offline Junior Member
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    yuck!! the only side effect I would like would be vasodilation for two reasons, one to absorb more bupe and the other well, nevermind.

  11. #23
    dogpaw Guest

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    Thank you, Ratchett. That made it really clear and understandable. I had some of those symptoms while on Suboxone. I have never injected anything in my life, but my M.D. would only prescribe -oxone from day one. He believed all addicts are liars.

    P.S. - No dope since Jan. 29, and today I have two months clean from sub! I feel HAPPY!!!

  12. #24
    yoyo is offline Junior Member
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    dogpaw,
    How long did you experience w/d after stopping your last dose, if you don't mind. Also, what was your dose titration schedule? Did you go down to 1/2 mg, then space your dosing every other day or how did you do it? I am curious to know how long your w/d lasted and when they started after your last dose. Thanks.

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