Hmmm...

I may be crucified for saying this, and of course, I'm very new to all of this, but not to recovery and not to contributing on forums. There seems to be a lot of bitterness here.
I've been taking bup for 8 days, my dose is being lowered in a few days, and I have every intention of being off it within a month....no matter how sh*t I feel. This part of my life is over, and my doctor did tell me before I started this program that my body will never be the same again, that bup wil affect my reactions to opiates FOREVER, and even alcohol and other stuff. He also said that I will suffer. Its not going to be an easy road. For the one person who replied to my introductory post, I said that I realised that this is like being stuck in a bear trap, and that the only way out is to tear your flesh. The fact is that the paracetamol was killing me, and I have tried for 4 years to detox myself from opiates without any medical help.

As for 12 steps, and all other methods of dealing with underlying psychological issues related to addiction, IMHO these are the most important and valuabe therapies for people like us. Screw the physical effects, have a look inside your heads!!! Its a lot messier in there, notwithstanding myself!

I hear your stories my friends, and I'm ready for the pain, and I'm greatful for the information you have provided me. All of us have been though utter hell with this, and I came here for a kind word....

"Respite and nepenthe from thy memories"

You have a strong fighting chance, esp being on bupe only 8 days or less than a month. We could probably have the same debate over apples. Trying to eat too many apples a day to keep the dr. away and now youve got eroded stomach lesions or irritable bowel syndrome or some exotic disease now. Too much of anything is bad for you in one way or another. I wish so much I never stayed on sub- I wish I never even tried it. But for some people it works for them. Maybe they are not on the boards because they dont need to be. People mostly come here because they are suffering and miserable (me) and looking for support--- that could be why we dont see many positive posts about it.
I know AA did wonders for me when it came down to alcohol. I was never so happy in my life-- then i strayed and got on the pill train-- big bad mistake. The program worked for me once and once im off the sub for good I will give it another chance.

I hate myself for getting into this situation and reading ratchetts and bupes and bhams horrible experiences makes me practically want to cut my head off! I will share honestly what its like for me. Im almost there. I can tell you already though, I hate sub.
I wish it was never invented. But people strung out on heroin may feel differently. I want everyone on here to feel better I really do. I feel for all of us. good luck, take care, dd

FYI Arlene .. I have over 10 years in both AA and NA. The "Program" has it's pros, AND cons.

Been there, done that, wore out the tee shirt.

Listen, this is not a post for help. This is a post to stop the POOR souls that have not used.
Please keep the 12 steps where they belong.
Please keep the hope where it belongs.
I am not in any way trying to be an ***. I am trying to stop the newbies from ever using this DEVILISH SHTTTT.
I have all the compasion in the world for the ones on it already. But making a real difference is what this has started.

Look at the post people. Do not look here for hope. This is REALITY. you want to do 12 steps? You need it? I understand that. How about making one of those steps making one of the largest changes you can make in all this. Stopping the next person from starting this shtttt. If a newbie comes in to a hope post, they will be on this shttt in a week. Is that the answer? NO WAY!

John is one of the most respected members on this board. Read his post. THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THIS s**t, and he knows like I do. There will still be details to come about this crap. It already sounds bad, but I am sure there is so much more bad crap to come about this stuff. I feel for everyone on this crap, but that is done.
Do we need to be so weak in hearing it will be ok for us users of Bup, rather than stop the next ones? Lets deal with the thousands of horrible problems we have started, after all in the end it is up to each single identity to do what you must do. But lets not be so weak as to avoid a EXTREMELY important issue. Letting those non useers of Bup know that it is a Horror beyond their current state of comprehension.
Just read the post. Read what these guys are saying. It's not a conspiracy, it is just ALWAYS the same story.... Bup is their worst mistake ever made, bup has ruined their life's.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A 12 STEP POST, THIS IS NOT A POST FOR HOPE. STILL WAITING ON THE GOOD STORIES. OR EVEN THE OK ONES..

And please dont insult me with 12 steps again. ADDICTS, ADDICTS, ADDICTS, always want to make it easier. I think that 12 steps has saved many, many lifes. I think that church has saved many many lives...
Does 12 steps help the ones that need it? Absolutley!
Does it make the bad shttt that bup does to you go away. PLEASE! Dont be so weakly ignorant.
Does it help you deal with it, sure.
So that is a logical reason to do this shtttt. Come on, read the stories!
Bup is bad, Bup is bad... There are 2 sides. 2 sides and that is it. The ones in use hoping, arguing, defending.
And those that have really tried to stop and experienced all darkness in life.

READ THE FKKKING STORIES, please stop supporting this shttt. If you want to support, then go to the post where support is needed. And yes that is a very good thing.
But stop supporting this shttt when you have never quit using it and stayed clean and found happiness. Why is it so hard to read the stories? I know there is no way to run this post and get the actual answers I ask for only. But look at the 2 sides. The users and the past users that tried to stop it. It is always the current users that defend it. Come on, WAKE UP!

SKINNY

I am not defending bupe-- I dont like what its done to me so far---
But i have read some peoples stories that have lived to tell about it and they were on it over a year ---the only thing is-- I havent heard back, probably because they dont need to be here anymore.

Dark, not aiming at you at all. But you do not know the end yet.
As far as the past users, lets be fair. Cant we say that they are equally as likely to be using again and not seeking support?
Take 100 of these past bup users. Would you bet that 50% are clean with your money? This is still hopeful thinking.

Read the post, there are many users that are clean.
Read what they say. They are still here. That is the proof.

Addicts, we can have shttt pound into our head with a hammer and we are still going to turn around and look for the easier way. Users of it will not agree with this all. Of course they wont, it is like giving up. In the end you got to be tough and do it.

But why is it so hard to ignore the proof. All the positive outlooks come from current users hoping all the bad comes from past users that have stopped. That fact simply does not lie. We must stop holding on to false hope for the chance to let others know to never use this shttt. That is important for those that have used bup, then look for the support to get thru it.
I am slowly getting more and more of what I want to say out as the facts come out. The past users do not condone this shttt, seems like ever.
I know I can never pound this into current users, but I was not trying to.
I wish there was a way to not let them read this post. It was never about them.
It was for USERS OF 10 DAYS TO 10 YEARS, LET US KNOW YOUR STORY IF YOU HAVE STAYED CLEAN FOR ONE YEAR. But instantly so many others came in. That is the scared, I understand that. But it is still the scared addicted hoping it is not true.
Why do you want to live a lie? If you can not face this truth then you will not be strong enough to get clean anyway.
The mind is so strong. Once you face the truth you have no idea what you can do.
But go in with false hope, and you will be right back on the s**t when you experience horror you did not know existed.
Just read Bup4Pain's post here. That is the overwhelming concensus. I so far have not met anyone who has a different story. What he says is pretty much the Gospel. Quit hiding from this.
SKINNY

We can say that they are equally likely to be using again-- and unfortunately out of those 100 past bupe users---Ive only read about 10 positive stories--- so I would not bet my money on 50% of the being clean--but in those 10 stories lies my "hope"--(i know you hate word) and I need to cling on to them for my own peace of mind. Without hope you may as well be dead. And no matter how negative, how awful, how many horror stories I read, I will search and dig out the one positive one for me and for me only. It really sux what you and others are going through and I dread it oh so much-- you have no idea.

Again, I am trying to get to non bup users before it is too late. I wish there was a way to hide this from current users. I know you need hope, but I honestly feel that lies are not hope. When you get to a place in your detox and things you never imagened come out. Then you will be searching for more hope. Wouldnt it be better to know what is coming and prepare yourself? You want to do it cold and then trip out, or go to the doctor and get clonidine now? Get it now, if you dont need it great! Clonidine is not hope. It is fact. When you suffer this horror, the facts help you. I can't say enough how hard it is to understand all this while using. But almost all of us would go back and do it differnet if we could that have tried to stop. So why not save the future addicts from this HELL? Until we stay to my point, we are just addicts among recovering addicts argueing.
Personally, I want to go with the ones that are clean, clear headed. That is the Reality Facts of this!

SKINNY

Unfortunately most addicts that are clean 1 year or more wont be needing to come to a recovery message board so many of them who did live to tell about it wont be reading the post anyway so we will probably never know..............anyway, im not arguing.. I will shut up now and observe

I would hope they would post, Denise.

Helps us to stay clean & sober.

Love,
Ar

Arlene F.
EXODUS FROM MMT;12-25-02
"There is no easier, softer way - if nothing changes, nothing changes"

I was given Burprenex for 5 days at an inpatient detox center (coming off a bad oxy habit).

end of 5 days, went home, felt crappy for a few days....and, stayed clean (cause I sat my sick *** in meetings).

so, sorry if my post isn't what you wanted. just that perhaps, Bup has its place....short term detox.

and please, don't bother yellin at me.

I do know of a few people who have used Bupe SHORT TERM to get off a mild hydro habit successfully. When they slipped it was not because of the bupe but because of their "addiction" Usually feeling TO GOOD! or forgetting the pain.. or thinking life is good a hydro will make it even better... or Let's celibate with a little buzz.

Bupe is a useful drug IF used correctly. If the laws were different it would not be the good choice for maintenance IMHO. The only reason it IS good is because it is legal for "take homes" and the lack of a Mdone like clinic.

On the OTHER side are those who start bupe with the promise it will be the easy way out. Even many who tried to go short term "Tred" as an example.. He is now at 30+ days and STILL at 1 mg a day. I hate to say I told you so but now he will have a bupe issue... Every day he continues he is driving the bupe stake in deeper.

Many have stayed on bupe a few months and the bupe induced PAWS is what drives them back to DOC or Bupe. For those who have done long term Greeneyes and Kathy Rand. Life w/o bupe is no longer an option for them as the pain of DETOX ... AND a year + of PAWS is not doable, let alone how they will be post bupe for life.

Even after PAWS has subsided some and we are mostly OK but still in the crud we can easily loose hope loose resolve and buckle due to the relentless lack of energy and "spirit". To love life, to have motivation, to SLEEP and have a healthy sex drive. How wonderful would THAT be again.

Soooooooo a quasi depression has to be dealt with daily. Plodding along ... Day in day out.

THAT is what bupe STOLE from me. Lies by MD's clinics and the drug company.

Going on bupe was my worst mistake. I was claen when I started it. It was for "pain control" no tolerance, not addictive WOW... Just what I needed. Good old morphine would have been MUCH better.

All History now.. Skinny is right what can WE do to help prevent this tragic outcome from happening to others. It's our duty. The TRUTH HAS TO BE TOLD!

Been there, done that, wore out the tee shirt.

There are people on the methadone forum with years clean, notably Arlene and Dave, who stay to help others. And many more with more than 6 months clean. I have regularly seen members return to the pain med forum to tell of being clean for a year or more, recently this guy Mottw, with 2 years clean, I believe. But the sub forum, still waiting. The ones I see are John and Ratchett with different stories, who stay to help.

I apologize also, nepenthe, if I said anything to upset you. Unfortunately, on forums, most things said are at risk for upsetting someone. And I feel terrible about people like Denise who don't need to hear this now. Scaring the ones on sub is the collateral damage of trying to warn the ones we can save.

I apologize to anyone who finds this information to be upsetting. But I think it is still better to try and get the truth out there. Knowledge is power.

dee

Dee--off MMT 9-12-06

Just a note of caution..

With bupe being SO very effective a way out of a dependence is used correctly... It's easy for a an addict to say .. "Humm no big deal... I can use again then just use bupe AGAIN to get out when I need to again."

What many are finding is that after repeated usage short term the same thing happens if you use it long term.. The ability of the sub to "work" for you becomes less and less .. The PAWS gets longer and longer as you brain adapts to the repeated bupe exposure. What took .5 mg or 1-2 mg to hold a WD can now take 4 mg and more...

For those who titrate UP to to 16 24 or even 32 mg of bupe is you have then UP-regulated now requiring large doses to be OK... So when you try it for DETOX it is MUCH less effective if at all.

Bupe is like freaking magic the first time you use it. If you use the least amount for the shortest time you can use it again and again.. But you slowly get used to it. then it is less effective and more and more are required .. it is no longer magic.

Our "horror" stories are the extremes. There is hope.. the longer you distance yourself from bupe and all opiates the better you get. Even my feeling down off bupe is better than the days I was on it in the end. the anti depressant qualities were long gone.. the little pain control it did have was long gone.. the lift was no longer there.. I was doing it to not get sick.


Been there, done that, wore out the tee shirt.

Not unlike most opioids in this regard. Instant magic...then it ain't.

Arlene F.
EXODUS FROM MMT;12-25-02
"There is no easier, softer way - if nothing changes, nothing changes"