Bup4...am worried about you & wondering how u r going. What is it at the 30+ day mark that is really bothering you? Is it the insomnia? At 2 weeks off subutex (I'm half way behind you!) it's the fatigue and insomnia that is still getting to me. I don't feel withdrawal symptoms as such...I just lie in bed feeling WIDE awake (aching legs too) and am still only doing the 4-6 hrs sleep thing. And I really crash and burn in the afternoon.

That being said, each day I do feel a little better. I can't wait for the day...whenever it may come...when I feel NORMAL (whatever that may be) and I can post "I did it" I did it! i did it!"

As a different perspective, I should also say that although I was on subutex for over a year, I didn't notice any progressivley worse effects. But perhaps that's because I was always mentally comparing it with the Dreaded Methadone I'd been on for so long previously. IMO, once you've been bound to MM and tasted M. withdrawal, anything else seems mild in comparison. What I mean is, the bupe seemed mild and I felt fine, even long term. I do understand others have experienced it differently - I guess I was lucky. I hear what you're saying about the guinea-pig thing too...who knows what they'll find out down the track about long term bupe use.

Anyway, thanks everyone for sharing on this thread. Good luck with coming off the .4mgs Rik (I went that low too before jumping, and it really did make it easier, tho' I understand your wish to be off it ASAP)...and hope u r travelling better Bup4 by the time u read this post.

Lilly,

I'm OK.

6mg-for 4 days
4mg-for 4 days
2.8mg-for 4 days
2mg-for 4 days
1.6mg-for 4 days
1.2mg-for 4 days
0.8mg-for 4 days
0.4mg-for 4 days

Looks good to me.. Makes me even more at the "High Dose" strategy of BMT. Doses for 6 months and longer at 48 mg!!! even 24 mg for Long term maintenance is uncalled for *if* 4 mg - 6 mg will do it. SO why push the higher doses?

Stroll along at 24 mg for 2 years and I wonder how you will do trying to get off... if you can get off w/o some sort of damage. Just a concern. I want to see some data! I want to hear some personal testimonials about ending high dose long term (18 months minimum)usage of buprenorphine.

Will there be a large # of people going from BMT over to MMT in 4-6 years? Will the strategy chance with bupe as more is learned. I'm sure it will. I just wonder where it will end up going, and what changes it will have.

This drug is very new (other than for short term pain control). We don't have a lot to go on like we do with MMT, which has been around since WW II.

Opiates are fairly personal in it's way it effects people. Maybe bupe is the best long term medication for some, and is horrible for others. I wonder if bupe has a wider range and is less consistent than older opiates in how it effects a person?

Just some ramblings and questions nothing more.

Glad you're OK Bup4!

48mg long term? Sounds pretty insane to me! I don't see the point of a dose that high. Even 24mg, as you say. I agree with the less is more mantra!

Here's how out of touch I am with 'addictionolgy' (what a crack-up word - reminds me of our local greengrocers with 'fruitologist' painted on their shop sign!)....I didn't even know till I found this site that bupe is most commonly used short term to get people off heroin and opiate pills. I just thought it was being used to get people off methadone. I remember the trials here a few years back when they were trying to swap people on high doses of M. over to sub and it wasn't working. That's when they came to the 'get down to 30mg or less' conclusion. I guess there must have been Oz trials for getting people off H. using bupe too - just didn't know about them.

U might think it's weird, but I've never heard of Oxys or Hydros, which so many people on the board mention. What are they - pure codeine or morphine pills? Most addicts in Oz use Asian H. (coke is a problem too, tho' there is no crack to speak of in Oz.) Pill problems are mostly benzo ones - Rohypnol and Serepax come to mind. Mind you, I'm thinking about street junkies, which was my own milieu. Perhaps there is a whole middle-class addicted to painkillers out here of which I know nothing about. Entirely probable in fact!

Thinking of you and hoping today is a 'Good Day'.

Yes Lilly,

There sure is a new middle class epidemic of pain killer addicts showing up more and more.

Hydro is short for hydrocodone= Vicodin, Lortab to name two.

Oxy is short for Oxycontin= A new form of Oxycodone that is time released and not supposed to be addicting...LOL Just like methadone wasn't supposed to be either.

Rik, I cant blame you for wanting that stuff out of you ASAP....whatever you do and however you end up doing it...just please have a back up plan ready. You are still living amongst it all arent you? Or have you decided to go to your brothers for awhile..

~~~Do the right thing and risk the consequences~~~Spring~~~

Spring..I flushed the hydro...I'm upset over the fact that I've spent $1200.00+ on an outpatient detox program and I can't get the doctors to realize I need a 16mg maintenance dose of Suboxone to make me feel 'normal'. They insist on keeping me at 8mg/day.

~~~Vote against Bushonian Imperialism~~~

PillMonkey,

You SHOULD be very upset!!!!!!!!!! These doctors are supposed to be trained in making sure the patient is COMFORTABLE!!!!!
If you lived here where I do, you would love my doctor, he is all for you being in comfort, and he gets really angry over stories of people being made to be in misery. This med was designed to make withdrawals easier, not hard. I get a little upset, with all the stories I have heard, when I hear of a doctor who refuses to keep a person on the sub for the time needed. Most or some doctors are more concerned with how many people they can get on this program, then off quickly, because the more rounds of 30 people they go thru, the more cash in their pocket. Thats not right! I realize that not all Dr.s are like that, but some are without a doubt.
If your Dr. will not help you, Id look into finding one that would. Hopefully they will be sympathetic to your situation and look out for you $$. You might be suprised, my doctor was willing to see a lady friend of mine I met in Florida. He was outraged by how her Dr. was treating her therefore he was willing to show her how this program is SUPPOSED to be.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Have a blessed Day!
Subgal~

Lily......There is a huge problem with oxycontin & Oxycodone & Hydro's in the middle & upper class here....Personally *I* didn't realize how bad it was until people found out that I was taking Oxy's + Roxicodone (which is pure codeine without the tylenol) .....Everyone was calling my brother to try to get me to sell them!!!!! [:0] Tempting as it was - I would have no parts of that...Then I found out that like close to half the peeps that went to my high school have had some sort of painpill addiction/dependecny at some point...another [:0].....Opiates are wicked evil things...

In regards to these Dr's that are giving high doses of Bup...I really don't think anyone needs more that 24mg and that being for just the first few days.... I used that much for a few days then stepped down to 16 with NOOO problem....Now I take 8mg one day and find that I feel the need to take 16 the next day...Granted this is only day 20 on the Bup for me....Coming off of Oxycontin for Chronic Pain 3 80mg/day + massive amounts of Oxycodone or Roxicodone...Ending with a two month stint of massively abusing the Oxy's [B)]
My doctor feels that anymore than 16mg/day is tooo much..But openly admits that he's only been using this drug for 7 months and is still getting aquainted with how it affects each individual...So, he's very concerned with patients being comfy while sticking to his guns about getting down to lower doses ASAP ( there's that "less is more, less is more thing again )....Also for patients who have been using Oxy longterm that it's best to do a 2-3 month taper-that he's found this most successful in keeping patients from going back to using pain pills....
I'm going on 3 weeks of Suboxone - I DO NOT feel that I would be able to taper, step off and STAY CLEAN...I'm waaay to unstable emotionally and physically at this point..But feeling better every day...
Ohhhh, and I have to say......STAY AWAY FROM THE BENZO's....(I was feeling pretty good and didn't notice that I had not been taking my 1mg Klonopin 2x/day....On day three without the Benzo's -MAJOR WITHDRAW symptoms hit...I'm weening off of the Benzo and taking Clonodine instead )

Jessie, I am glad you are doing so well!! I remember when you first posted about seeing the doc on superbowl Sunday, and how sick you were!!
I am about as middle class as you can get, working mother of two, live in suburbs, etc. There are many of us out here, attorneys, professionals, all kinds of people. You are right, opiates are wicked!!!! At least for some us, anyhow. Wish I wasn't one of them, but I think we are born with the addiction gene, and then something sets it off, and pow!!!

Jess - if you don't feel like you are ready to step off and stay clean, then you should definately stay on the bupe longer. Hope your Dr. understands this! I reckon the trick is to SLOWLY get down low and stay there if you feel you need to - although as I'm learning from this board there is not much known about long term bupe use, and others have reported feeling bad effects from it (not me though...and I was on it for a year.)

Re. the middle class thing...when I found this board, I thought "Gee, these guys are articulate for junkies!!" LOL. So the 'middle-class/ educated/pain killer addiction' thing makes sense now. I 'm solidly middle class too. Got myself a sociology degree and travelled overseas, then came to Sydney and went right off the rails, big time. (I've got Australian convict ancestors, so think I'm a throwback!!) Now I'm making up for lost time - rediscovering books and reading like a maniac, and back at uni studying. Am into Dark Ages Britain at the mo - so cool to have some OTHER interests (besides my family.) I have to work on not beating myself up about those wasted years. Keep telling myself they weren't wasted 'cos through them I've really learnt what's precious in life, and savour it MORE than I would have otherwise. (I also ended up with Hep C for my troubles, which is a sh*t of a legacy of those drug years...Hope I'm still around for my kids in another 10 years.)

You're doing great so far Jess, keep it up

Hey, Lily, we have more in common than being middle class mothers, since I have Hep C, too. A little gift from my wilder, younger years. Let's chat about it, what treatments are like in Oz, how you are doing, etc., sometime, OK???
I don't know anyone else with the disease, since I left my former accomplices behind over 20 years ago. Maybe we can e-mail or something, if you are willing?
At any rate, I am sorry this has happened to you!!
Ashley

(((rik))): You are so right, sometimes I don't know how lucky I am. But you know, when it comes down to it, we have to do it for ourselves, right? And yes I do agree that street users have a tougher time, because I was a street user 20+ years ago, got clean, got a degree, got married, had kids, then reverted back to my old behavior after I was diagnosed w Hep C 10 years aqo, only this time I used pharmaceuticals instead of heroin. I guess I thought I was free of the past, but it came back to haunt me.
You are very strong in your motivation, Rik, and I can relate to the obsessing about old resentments. Today, I was writing a letter in my head to someone who ticked me off at least 7 years ago!! I mean, why can't I let that stuff go? I think it's the addict, and I am glad that you posted that, it really helped me to recognize that.
As for therapy, I do think it can help, but it is very hard to find a good therapist that you can relate to, IMO. Maybe you could do some searching? I think it helps to have someone, non-family or friend, to talk to. And I don't mean to play doctor, but you do sound a little down, and I am worried about you.
And remember, one day at time, right??
Take good care,
Ashley

Hey Rik, this bup stuff can really keep you down, but it does sound like you are making progress. 24 is the only show I watch on TV these days, and the drug thing w Jack bothered me too, altho' the H memories for me are long ago, so not so bad. The show is great and I won't give it away, but you are in for some surprises.
As for not wanting to get the tests, well I can relate to that too. I am 6 months overdue for my hep c follow up test, since I underwent treatment last year and cleared the virus [:0] after 6 months - that's what also got me started back on the opiates - the treatment that is; very nasty stuff. I'll make you a deal, I'll go next week for my test, if you go for yours??? They can never get a vein on me either, and I haven't used those veins in 20 years. At least it will get us out of the house!! [:I]
As you can see, I have no life, since I am sitting here on a Saturday night in front of the computer. Looking forward to the finale of Sex and the City tomorrow night, now that's my idea of some real excitement, yee haw!!
CA, in the south is great this time of year, altho' I prefer the north above SF. You're doin' great, Rik. Let's get those blood tests, K?

Hi everyone....hope you all have a great, okay, at least good day today...

Rik- I can relate to all you've said....I enjoy reading your posts, you express yourself eloquently...

Ashley, thanks for the vote of confidence...Yeah, I was feeling rough then feeling great, then the whole running out of Benzo's throwing me into withdrawls really set me back like 5 days.[B)]....I too think addiction is in the genes...My father had problems with pills at one time when he was young (only bout 7 months) and alcohol off and on all his life. Also my brothers have alcohol problems...I fear my brother is starting to get addicted to Perc's..

Lily- (gosh, I love that name )....I'm not going to worry myself about when I'll stop the Suboxone...I've really got to get myself back before I start to worry about getting off the Sub...The Doctor said it would be best to stay on it at least 2-3 months anyhoo-just afraid that I'll have a hard time kicking the Sub..But hey, if I can kick the oxy's - I feel like I can do anything....I KNOW I CAN (trying to speak positively..hahaha)....

Don't know what I'd do without this place...It's been sooo great...People try to understand, but there is really nooo wayy for them to unless they have expeirienced themselves....

I craved for the first time last night.......But I did have a "confrontation" with someone and lil spats with hubby all day, so I think it was the stress...It was like F**k this, It's not worth it, I could just take a pill and none of this crap would bother me....But, I got past that....Feeling pretty darn peachy this morning...

Jessie - You Go Girl!!
You darn well should be feeling peachy with yourself, cos you *resisted* the urge to give into the moment and use (Been there, done the latter!)

Imagine how p****d off you'd be feeling now if you had...instead you're feeling...proud and a little amazed?? That's how I feel when I wrestle with the surfacing addict, and...whaddaya know?...actually WIN!

Lily