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  1. #1
    goodbye2hydro is offline Senior Member
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    Default Dangers bouncing from Sub/opiates/Sub..?

    I just talked to my Sub dr's nurse on phone and was told something I DEFINITELY didnt want to hear....


    She said that there is a danger in "bouncing back n forth" from opiates to Sub, to opiates...... I did not know this. In the Sub booklet, it only mentions Benzos, barbituates, etc mixed with Sub IV being dangerous to the respiratory system. Like who would inject 2 of those together anyhow?

    But, evenso, if there is a possibility of it being very risky to "bounce" from opiates to Sub and back, then that is really going to SUCK! Because I have done that twice now, and I'm still here! And I'm certain theres MANY others that do that too!

    I didnt read anywhere in that book that mentioned "opiates" as being a danger to "bounce" back and forth from. Or perhaps that may just apply to Suboxone, and not Subutex? And only if injected? Somebody? I dont want to end up in the ER here...



    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"
    \"ONE STEP FORWARD, SEVERAL STEPS BACK\"

  2. #2
    Mic Guest

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    Can you get on Sub, (if not already) and put the other elements of your recovery program together?

    Is it not true that you would have to do the "back & forth" one last time?

    I dunno all your specifics, so forgive me if I've missed a salient detail.

    Mic

    "It takes what it takes"

  3. #3
    ivdonitall is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    I went back and fourth a few times myself, It's not a good thing I'm sure. Just make sure you give yourself time in between the two.
    If you take hydro shortly after sub intake your wasting time and $ becuase the sub is strong enough to block the effects of hydro.
    If you take sub while hydro is still in your system you will go into wd's, either way it can't be good for the noodle.
    JB

    "Opiates Suck"
    ME

  4. #4
    ivdonitall is offline Senior Member
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    I agree with Mic, you need a recovery plan. Your flying by the seat of your pants approch will get you nowhere but right back were you started.
    JB

    "Opiates Suck"
    ME

  5. #5
    goodbye2hydro is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by ivdonitall

    I went back and fourth a few times myself, It's not a good thing
    If you take hydro shortly after sub intake your wasting time and $ becuase the sub is strong enough to block the effects of hydro.

    JB
    This is true, but only to an extent. I felt Hydro effects only 2-3 days after my last Sub pill. Everybodys different though. Once I ran out of HYDRO and started SUB about 8 hours later- and felt very euphoric. It doesnt always work that way though.

    BTW, how does "bouncing" affect the brain? Thats not good. I didnt know that. Anyhow, I always wait at least 24 hours other than that one time I mentioned above...

    I'm still wondering if theres any truth in what that nurse said about "bouncing" from opiates/Sub/opiates, etc. And if that applies only to Suboxone, not Subutex. Or only those certain meds that the book mentions and NOT opiates... or if it meant only IV use?

    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"

  6. #6
    elbowguts is offline Senior Member
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    Who knows what that nurse meant? It could mean a million different things. I know that doctors can be concerned about overdoses caused when people on sub take a very large dose of another opioid in the hope of breaking through and getting a buzz. That can lead to overdose because apparently the ceiling and blocking effects of buprenorphine do not apply to the respiratory depression caused by other opioids.

    Otherwise, she might've meant that it screws with the natural balance of your brain.

    All we can do here is speculate. If you ever ask her for clarification, please let us know what she said.

    -- Guts

  7. #7
    goodbye2hydro is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by elbowguts

    If you ever ask her for clarification, please let us know what she said.

    -- Guts
    Edited to "re-word" as this original post was OFTEN ENTIRELY misunderstood:

    I did, and she just said "read your Sub book." Oh well. I'm left to speculation I suppose. I did read that book though, and it did NOT mention dangers in using Sub with opiates anywhere. I am concluding that this probably means IV use with Sub, Benzos, etc. She probably thought I was on Suboxone anyhow, which (I think) has the deterrent (Naxolene?) (spelled right?) in it to discourage using opiates with it.

    And if Naxolene is in Suboxone and not in SUBUTEX (which is that I take), then thank G-d! Because I have "bounced back and forth" with Subutex and Hydro a couple of times and am probably in less danger than I would be w/Suboxone. I could be wrong though- in which I'm certain I'll soon be corrected.


    I WOULD LIKE TO STRESS THAT I DO NOT, OR HAVE NEVER USED SUB OR ANYTHING ELSE BY WAY OF IV!!!!!!! My addiction is Hydrocodone (pills) and ONLY Hydro!!!





    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"

  8. #8
    imported_n/a Guest

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    quote:Originally posted by goodbye2hydro

    quote:Originally posted by elbowguts

    If you ever ask her for clarification, please let us know what she said.

    -- Guts
    I did, and she just said "read your Sub book." Oh well. I'm left to speculation I suppose. I did read that book though, and it did NOT imply opiates anywhere. She probably thought I was on Suboxone anyhow, which has the deterrent in to ensure not using opiates. Which I'm on SUBUTEX. Thank G-d!


    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"
    First of all, Suboxone does not have a deterent in it that prevents people from using opiates. It prevents people from INTRAVENOUSLY INJECTING THE SUB. Make that clear.

    Second of all, reading all of the posts today from you, I really don't see where you're going to go except back onto your hydro. You say you are glad you're on Subutex at the end of the statement above. Then you say Thank God. I take that to mean that you're thankful you can still use opiates (even tho the information you stated was incorrect).

    I just don't know how to help you goodbye. Yes, of course if you can take those 2 little 8mg pills and divvy them up into fourths, then you can take a fourth of a tablet over the first three days of hydro wd and feel 'better', not great, not top of the line, but maybe not bed-ridden. Does that make sense? This will not be enough sub to completely saturate your receptors, yet it will be satisfying enough to them that your brain will go "Ah, ok. Much better" but only briefly. You won't have sub wd after stopping the sub (in the full sense of the meaning of what real sub wd is), neither will you have intense hydro wd.

    But you aren't going to feel peachy keen no matter what you do, take, read, or whatever. We had to pay to play Goodbye. That's just all there is to it. I know you've heard the words, "There is no easy way out." Bottom line.

    I do not mean to sound harsh, but just callin it like I'm seein it here, out of concern for you.

    Take care,
    Beth

    It is what it is.

  9. #9
    imported_n/a Guest

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    quote:Originally posted by goodbye2hydro

    I just talked to my Sub dr's nurse on phone and was told something I DEFINITELY didnt want to hear....


    She said that there is a danger in "bouncing back n forth" from opiates to Sub, to opiates...... I did not know this. In the Sub booklet, it only mentions Benzos, barbituates, etc mixed with Sub IV being dangerous to the respiratory system. Like who would inject 2 of those together anyhow?

    But, evenso, if there is a possibility of it being very risky to "bounce" from opiates to Sub and back, then that is really going to SUCK! Because I have done that twice now, and I'm still here! And I'm certain theres MANY others that do that too!

    I didnt read anywhere in that book that mentioned "opiates" as being a danger to "bounce" back and forth from. Or perhaps that may just apply to Suboxone, and not Subutex? And only if injected? Somebody? I dont want to end up in the ER here...



    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"
    One more thing, then I'll shut up, which I'm sure you'll be glad to hear me do.

    The danger that your nurse is referring to is more than likely (I can't speak for her, only myself) the fact that when addicts use for long periods of time, hell, even short periods of time and then say they go get on Sub. Say they get some time on Sub, like oh, two months and they decide they need to relapse for whatever reason.

    So, they go get their DOC and get all excited about using and getting that warm, fuzzy feeling back....the feeling they've been missing for so long. Then let's say they stop their sub (or even if they don't) a couple days in advance of using their big score.

    And then they take a pill...then two, then 3, then 4, then on and on and on and on. Or they take a hit of heroin, then another, then another, and so on and so on.

    Why are they doing this? Because they can't "FEEL" the high. And they WANT to feel that HIGH more than ANYTHING in the WORLD! And instead, they end up dead.

    Accidental death by overdose of opiates/heroin/whatever doc is yours, is the #1 cause of death by addicts in this country. People don't die getting clean, going thru detox and recovery, they die when they relapse, can't attain that original wonderful heavenly high and accidentally overdose. They have a sudden, unexpected major heart attack and out they go.

    All for the sake of the high.

    This is, in my opinion, probably what she was trying to warn you about. She probably just didn't feel comfortable (unfortunately) going into it with you...probably didn't have "time" with her other duties of the day.

    It happens to me each time I switch from Sub back to pain pills. My tolerance level is [u]IMMEDIATELY</u> back to where it was when I left off and [u]THEN SOME</u>.

    Please keep this thought in the back of your mind, research it a little bit and see what you find. It's of course all up to you Goodbye, I just want to make sure you hear it at least once.

    Take Care,
    Beth

    It is what it is.

  10. #10
    Mic Guest

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    quote:Originally posted by goodbye2hydro

    quote:Originally posted by elbowguts

    If you ever ask her for clarification, please let us know what she said.

    -- Guts
    I did, and she just said "read your Sub book." Oh well. I'm left to speculation I suppose. I did read that book though, and it did NOT imply opiates anywhere. She probably thought I was on Suboxone anyhow, which has the deterrent in to ensure not using opiates. Which I'm on SUBUTEX. Thank G-d!


    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"
    The "back & forth" consequences apply evenly to Suboxone or Subutex; it's the partial agonist properties of BOTH that she's talking about.

    That said, I suggest you do some deep soul-searching, and THEN tell us what you want to do? For two reasons: 1) I sense you're conflicted, and 2) spending time with your efforts means that people who KNOW they want sobriety, are being overlooked....not anymore.

    Mic

    "It takes what it takes"

  11. #11
    goodbye2hydro is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by AmazingGrace

    You say you are glad you're on Subutex at the end of the statement above. Then you say Thank God. I take that to mean that you're thankful you can still use opiates
    Well, that's not what I was implying at all actually. When I originally thought I had finally concluded that 'bouncing back and forth' from SUBUTEX/opiates, etc must be LESS dangerous than to do with SUBOXONE...that's where the "Thank G-d" came in! I was relieved that I take SUBUTEX instead of SUBOXONE. See?

    But you had said that even SUBOXONE in the PILL FORM cannot produce w/d's anyhow. Which I did not know. So now I'm now assuming that the dangers of "bouncing back and forth" must be associated either with IV use or ANY use of Benzos, Barbituates, etc. Which I don't use anyhow.

    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"

  12. #12
    goodbye2hydro is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by micster
    [br I suggest you do some deep soul-searching, and THEN tell us what you want to do? For two reasons: 1) I sense you're conflicted, and 2) spending time with your efforts means that people who KNOW they want sobriety, are being overlooked....not anymore.
    It's quite evident that I should've RE-WORDED a particular former sentence and anything else that I wrote that somehow got seriously confused! I DO NOT WANT to continue opiates- and that should be evident in my wanting to discontinue Sub too as well as anything that would control my life! And I'm not in conflict at ALL on this. :( Sure, I've backslid on occasions, but who HASN'T? What doesnt kill us makes us stronger, right?

    And, as far as "soul searching"... well, I've DONE that and KNOW WHAT I WANT AND MUST DO! SO HERE I AM ON THIS BOARD just like you all! And I'm just as serious as anyone on here! So do NOT imply that I am not yet ready!

    "IMPRISONED IN A REVOLVING DOOR"

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