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A couple of years ago i started a thread but never kept it up. My son is a twin..his twin brother is clean & was never interested in drugs. My son David has struggled for years with trying to alter his mind with alchol or drugs. His history is long & filled with heroin over doses, arrests, forced detox's in jail, rehab a few times and yet I can't/wont give up on him. There is a good person in there...a loving son...maybe to sensitive & with low self esteem. Being a twin is good & bad. He compares himself to his brother & in his mind always falls short. What he can't understand is his brother "A" goes slow & steady where my son David wants it NOW.
I am writing because my son has been on suboxone for almost 2 years. He was a heroin addict for a few years & tried a methadone clinic (he never made it in time to get his dose & went back to dope) then he heard about sub & went to a local internist who could prescribe it, she started him out on 32 mg. a day then dropped him to 24 mg after several months. He was supposed to be in counseling & attend AA 3 times a week.
She got him on a program (through suboxone makers) where he gets it free but can only stay on the program for 1 year so she (the doctor) has been tapering him since he got on the "program". He has never adhered to the taper because of "stress" in his life. He is 28 & been an addict since he was 16 or so.
He came by recently & told me he will be jumping from 16 mgs on July 28, 2012. His therapy Dr told him there is no difference in jumping off of 16mg ct or tapering other than tapering can cause w/d as you taper. He said to take 2 weeks off of work & he will give him some comfort meds.
I am a nervous wreck. My worst fear is that he will go back to dope when the depression hits - any suggestions as to what meds will help & what to do for him?
I would love to call his Dr J & tell him that 2 weeks will only be the begining of w/d's off of suboxone!
Thanks in advance for any help
Does he want to get clean? That is the only thing that will lead to a positive outcome. There are no comfort meds that will alleviate withdrawals from CT 16 mg of Sub. The best thing you can do for him is positive support and maybe looking for a long term "sober house" type of place he can go to.
"The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe something because one wishes it to be so."
Wow, jumping off at 16 mgs after being on sub for 2 years. I'm no expert and I'm sure others will come along who are. I can only tell you that our daughter used sub to get off methadone once and heroin/methadone another time. She has clonadine and phegeren as comfort meds. It still wasn't pretty. Cramping, stomach problems, nausea, vomiting, body aches, dizziness, tremendous fatigue. And both times she used sub for very short periods of time... A week or so. I can't imagine how your son might feel going CT and I can't imagine a doctor not knowing how hard this may be. My heart goes out to you. It must be very hard to watch. Having twins and seeing how widely divergent their lives, choices and reactions are... It must be so hard for all of you. Our daughters are two years apart, but one has fallen into addiction (and hopefully recovery now) and the other has had no issues with it. Really makes you wonder. I hope that soon a moderator or other person who has real knowledge of this comes in to offer some assistance. A gentleman on this site by the user name jdude has been our guiding light thru the last few detoxes. He seems sooo knowledgeable about how tonplan things like this. You need someone with his level of knowledge. PM me if you want his phone number. Please take care of yourself, seek Alanon for support. Hugs
There's a significant difference between jumping from 16 mgs. and tapering. You do experience some withdrawal while tapering, but generally only when you reach about 1 mg. or less. Certainly nothing to compare to cold-turkey from a high dose. The ignorance of medical doctors who present themselves as "experts" on this medication is astounding.
He's young, and therefore would survive, but that's not really the issue. Even if one chose to put themselves through that mental and physical trauma, doing so increases the risk of relapse significantly. That's the whole point of a taper. It allows you to experience ALL the various symptoms in a milder form, thus allowing your body and mind to adjust. Otherwise, the shock to your system simply finds you looking for relief in the way you know best. You might want to verify that this came from his doctor, rather than a bunch of anecdotal nonsense he picked up from fellow users or the blogosphere.
If he really wants to quit, a slow taper to a low dose is his best bet. It also means he'll be willing to go through what's necessary to succeed, rather than just thinking he can take the express lane. Good luck.
You say he didnt adhere to the year-long taper suggested by the doctor? At what dose would he be at now if he had? It sounds like the doctor was trying not to scare him by telling him that jumping at 16mgs could be a tough thing to do. It wont be dangerous but it's probably going to hurt like hell.
And if David hasnt been closely following a program or attending some sort of support group, then the jump off such a high dose is an invitation to run directly for relief.
I'm sorry to say this to you, but from everything you said, I doubt he's ready to stay clean at this point. If he wants to stay on Sub then he is probably going to have to pay a doctor and pharmacy for it.
PS: I merged your 2 threads and removed the first post since it was identical.
Central Costa Rica, Home base is East coast of USA
Re: CT off 16mg suboxone
I have to agree here with spring. If this is a forced taper due to lac of free sub his chances are slim to staying clean. This is not one can be forced into, cohorced into or badgered into. If not what he is BEGGING for, he will soon find his way to the mind state he is most comfortable with. It sounds like opiates to me also.
Not at all encouraging sub use. I feel that is the most harmful opiate on the market. Hardest to end for sure. Keep posting, many moms here with great insight on how to live/ love a addicted child. Me, just the addict child learning to become the adult.
Thank you all for the responses. He "wants" to be clean but honestly I am not sure he is committed to following through & working through all the sickness both acute & PAWS. I can't imagine what it will be like for him to just stop!
It is his therapist (Dr Jim) who has assured him that jumping off will be fine & to take 2 weeks off. That said, I am sure Dr Jim has never had an opiate addiction, nor suboxnone education other than what the rep tells him. David gets his suboxone from Dr G (an internist) who insisted he go to therapy & AA while on the suboxone..if he followed the taper he would be at 8mg with 2mg reductions the next 4 months.
Freakedout: He has been through detox & rehab & sober house living...it's all good while he is "there" but the minute he is on his own he does what he wants.
James:"He's young, and therefore would survive, but that's not really the issue. Even if one chose to put themselves through that mental and physical trauma, doing so increases the risk of relapse significantly. That's the whole point of a taper. It allows you to experience ALL the various symptoms in a milder form, thus allowing your body and mind to adjust. Otherwise, the shock to your system simply finds you looking for relief in the way you know best. You might want to verify that this came from his doctor, rather than a bunch of anecdotal nonsense he picked up from fellow users or the blogosphere."
I am going to call his theapist DR Jim & speak to him, i know Dr J can't comment on David but i want to fax him some of the posts here of people that actually LIVED through it or are going through it. Doctors just don't care to educate themselves..it's all about money..these sub doctors take CASH & in todays ecomony thats all they want to know..how many addicts will be paying CASH today..My nightmare is just what you stated Relpase to heroin & all the terrible things that go with it..Also James, he doesn't really use the computer so it didn't come from a blog but he may very well be lying to both his treating doctors about what milligram he is really on.
Spring: You are right on the money..relapse to relieve the physical & emotional pain. He goes to theapy & goes to AA but I am not so sure he is actually in "recovery" if you know what i mean. He has tried to get off before & didn't make it more than a few days. He does want off. He wants to drive a truck (he recently got his CDL License) & even with a script for sub no one will hire him..that is one of many reasons he has given me for wanting off. Thank you for merging the threads. I wasn't sure where to post so i posted both forums.
Boniat: I believe you...your story gives me hope that eventually David will get free of the opiates as you did. It is a sad thing that as a mother i feel safer when my son is in jail where he can't get to much dope...he has OD a few times - there is no other way to expalin it except it is a nightmare!
I will stay in touch here because i need support as much he does right now.
Dear Friend, yes, you do need support and I'm so glad you are here. It is a nightmare to have your child OD and to witness it is pain that can't be described. We carry that pain because our addicted children have no memory of that trauma. It sure is seared into my head and yours too. His wanting to be sober is great, but his actions, his determination, his perseverance are what is important. All the words in the world can't trump those three things. All your love for him can't save him. Maybe your talking to the doctors will help to get everyone on the same page and make your son accountable instead of playing one against another. But still it's what HE does that will make the difference. We are here to support you. Please seek out positive ways to find comfort and support. You need to take care of you and that's the best role model you can give to your son. Adults who have a disease seek advice from others who have had the same experience, follow it, and take care of themselves. That's what you want him to do, right? Let your actions speak to him. You've said all the words over and over, right? You've cried and begged and pleaded with him, right? None of that helps until he hears AND takes action for himself. Sending comfort and hugs.
Central Costa Rica, Home base is East coast of USA
Re: CT off 16mg suboxone
I have to add, I have found very few MD's who really understand sub, how it works, how addictive it is and none that know how to get any one off this drug. So sad to say but so true. When I was trying to reclaim my life I got here thru accepting/listening to other addicts who were successful before me.
While I was weaning off I didn't think I could do it at home. Been thru cold turkey many times, too any to count. Untill sub it was pretty simple. Just stop. Not so with methadone or sub. When I was in the end part of my sub wean I was trying to get a bed for the hardest part of the detox. Saw a MD who was the HEAD of the detox program. Now you would of thought he would know what he was talking about. He told me straight out I would NEVER be functional, happy with out some type of opiate in my system. Gave me the crap of your diabetic, wouldn't stop taken you insulin just because others told you that you could live a happy productive life w/o insulin. He admitted to me that he really don't know how to help me get off sub, we just RX that for life. Addicts always end up on methadone and now we have sub for them. Otherwise they are on the street stealing/ dying, etc. I almost gave up myself after talking with this well respected addiction specialist. I thought about it, was here on odr getting much help. I hated sub, feared what it was doing to me. So I decided to believe those here. Keep trying to get off sub. Now three yrs clean, very happy, very productive. Not saying it was easy by no means. I did relapse 8 mo after I jumped off sub due to the prolong paws/wd. I really didn't know when one ended, other started. I didn't relapse till I had plan of action in place for one last try at living dope free. If that didn't work I would nt be here today posting. I had my exit of this life plan in action. I am one lucky women as I am here today.
Getting away from opiate addiction takes commitment, daily diligence, strong desire and willingness to do whatever it takes. I had to stop running my own show for a while till I was strong enough/clear minded enought to make my own decisions. Not easy for a 51 yr old women who really though I was a "special" case. After all, I was an addict for over 35 yrs, nurse, educated. Who knew more then I what was best. Truth was, anyone who was able to remain clean knew more then I. I got help from kids younger, less educated but a hell of a lot more mature, responsible then I.
I am not saying give up on your son, never suggest that. But you do need to step back and let him do this work himself. Like Teddy said, thru your actions, how you live will teach him.
Not saying your not to do research on better choices for your son, share but in the end it's all on him. He as to want this more then he wants his next breath. If your making it easier for him by making sure he has food, a place to live, paying his bills or protecting him from facing the consequences of his choices your just prolonging his pain. I know this goes against every grain in your body but it's a fact.
omission is not honesty, only a different way of lying.
I too recently jumped from 16 mg./day. I was on for just under 8 years, am currently at 46 days since my last dose. My acute physical withdrawal is done but I am still very much sick. The worst and most debilitating aspect for me is the complete and total zombie fatigue-can barely walk the dog without gagging and heaving, and the crippling depression. I am considering myself lucky to be without work at the moment. Reading and asking questions has me deeply concerned that this will not lift for several more months. I am attending meetings daily. I hope and pray that I will not go crawling back to my doctor soon.
Hang in there! I can't imagine the sickness you are experiencing but you are off for 46 days..if you start sub again you will have to repeat these 46 days. Why did you jump from 16 mg & not taper?
My son has been out on his own since February. He has bounced in & out of my house since he was 18 (he is 28). He knows he has to make it on his own now...he has a GF that lives with him & she FINALLY got a job. I have withdrawn most "help" over the last year & will only pay directly for his doctor appt if necessary but i have an IOU signed each time that happens- no more freebies. I understand on one level that he has to do this on his own for himself but as a mother it is so hard to "not fix it" or help..i am doing better this time & i think that my change is based on his age..he is an adult now even if he is my "little boy" .
Thank you all for helping me stay strong. I appreciate it
Today was suppossed to be "quit day" but he has changed his mind, Thankfully! In part because of what i printed from this board...he seems to accept that tapering will be the right thing to do.
Thank You Everyone...will keep you all posted.
Information in this forum is not monitored or provided by a medical professional. The information reflects member opinions only. Do not act on advice from these forums without first consulting a qualified medical professional. All content is copyrighted and protected by Aelius Group.