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I have posted on this in the past but I just wanted to let you all know about how this new method of easing sub taper and detox. I have been on sub a pretty long time, about 4 years. I have been tapering and am down to 4mg a day from 12mg which was the dose I was on for a long time.
Moving down lower than 4mg has proven to be somewhat difficult for me, but manageable. However, I know once I get lower that I will be in much more discomfort.
My doctor is an Alternative medicine D.O. He rarely suggests pharmaceuticals unless he feels they are appropriate,safe and effective. Dilantin (phenytoin) is one medication he says that he stands behind 100%. It has stood the test of time and has proven to be very useful in over a 100 different problems and disorders.Dilantin was originally marketed as a seizure drug. It is incredibly safe and has very little or no side effects. It works by effectively calming electrical activity in the body. It doesnt effect the neurotransmitters in the brain or change brain chemistry.
This medication is truly amazing , yet was never marketed to doctors as anything but a seizure drug. Even though it has been shown time and time again to have numerous benefits for people with depression and anxiety issues. Jack Dreyfus was an incredibly wealthy man who made hundreds of millions of dollars on Wall Street during his life. He had lived with terrible anxiety and depression throughout most of his life though. He tried tons of medications and techniques to alleviate his terrible depression but nothing helped him. During his own personal research he decided to request to his doctor that he try Dilantin for depression. Almost immediatly his terrible symptoms were alleviated. He has spent the rest of his life (and $80 million of his own money) spreading the word about Dilantin and its uses to doctors, presidents, ect..
He has tried to get the the pharmaceatical company that manufactures Dilantin to include its other uses in the patient information but has hit a wall because of the expiration of Dilantin's patent. When a medication's patent expires a company stops making large profits because other companies can then begin to manufacture the drug generically.
It is terrible that a medication this amazing with soo many uses has been given the cold shoulder because of profit margins. I highly suggest that many of you spend some time on this site. Explore the site a little and read some of the clinical studies. The book and the website show thousands of studies on Dilantin for NON seizure disorders. http://www.remarkablemedicine.com/
The second link shows studies done on Dilantin proving its uses for opiate withdrawal.
I just began Dilantin about three weeks ago at 100mg per day(which is a much lower dose than used for people with seizure disorders). I almost immediatly felt alot of the anxiety and depression I have lived with for soo long decrease greatly. It isnt like Xanax or Valium, you dont even know its there but it noticably calms your body's electrical system. A therapeutic trial of Dilantin would be a great idea for alot of people struggling with coming off and tapering off suboxone. My doctor is a big fan of a trial period with medications to determine the medications benefit. I just wanted to let everyone know about this and the benefit I have already recieved from it.
The biggest problem would be finding a doctor who would be willing to do a therapeutic trial of Dilantin for you. The many doctors who are in support of using Dilantin for NON seizure disorders have that it is very effective to go into the doctor's office with a copy of Jack Dreyfus' book in hand for the doctor to borrow and read. The study's layed out in the book are un-arguable. All the study's were done at prestigious universities and hospitals and proves Dilantin's effectiveness. All I ask is that you browse the website and possibly read the book. I think this might be a huge help for suboxone patients tapering off a
i've been a nurse for 25 years--and are you for real when you say dilantin has no side effects???? there are too many to list, but just a few are, slurred speech, tremors, loss of balance gum disease with hyperplasia, nausea and vomiting, shallow breathing, insomnia, joint pain, headache, toxic epidermal necrolysis, confusion, liver damage, immune system disfunction, interferes with absorption of many other meds, and it can be FATAL!! dilantin is used as a last resort for seizures now BECAUSE of all the dangerous side effects!! i would highly suggest NO ONE take this unless they have a severe seizure disorder!! people that do have to take it--have to have their blood drawn monthly to make sure they aren't getting TOXIC! this is not a drug to use for detoxing or withdrawal!!
First, Dilantins dosage for seizure disorders are several times higher than its uses for non seizure disorders. My doctor is one of the most well respected doctors in michigan, he uses Dilantin in ALL of his patients with anxiety and depression far before he even thinks about using SSRI's. SSRIS have FAR more side effects and are mind altering substances. The medical community has to rely on research and trials when determining the effectiveness and safety of a medication. Here is a few links to several thousand studies on the use of Dilantin for non seizure disorder. If the patent hadnt run out on this medcine it would have been marketed for all of its various uses.
These are just a few of many great write ups on Dilantin's use and safety. Of course it doesnt havent zero side effects in many cases it has very little or no side effects, which is why a clinical trial for patients interested in Dilantin is a great idea- which the FDA encourages. For someone to say that Dilantin is toxic and not to be used unless severe seizure disorder is identified, makes me wonder what what your position on Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, etc is. Dilantin has been around for decades and has proven to be very safe and effective. I personally know two people who have been on it for most of their lives for epilepsy.
Please research and read the studies on Dilantin's uses. If you justify not prescribing a patient medication because of risk of side effects you will NEVER pull out your prescription pad. The safety of Dilantin is MUCH safer than the overuse of SSRI's. That is not a uninformed statement as you can read the countless studies showing this.
I am currently a med student at U of M and we have had many discussions about this medication in one of my labs. There is just too many benefits of using this medication to ignore. I am a great example of a success story with it. Most of any side effects coming with Dilantin appear soon after beginning its use, I have had no bad side effects from it in any way. I wouldnt recommend anything without a mountain of evidence to back up what I am saying. PLEASE READ SOME OF THE CLINICAL TRIALS.
regards phenytoin,I am reassured that you are experiencing benefits( not unpredictable ones at that) with your sub.taper.Phenytoin and its anti-seizure cousins(esp carbemazepine) are incresingly used as adjuvants in mood disorders esp bi-polar disorder.In essence they are membrane stabilisers( you can use them to stop heart rythmn probs-so they arent brain specific) and prevent the spontaneous depolarisation of an area of brain.This propagates and you fit.There is a little more to this depolarisation.The opiate family of receptors are transmembrane when activated this produces secondary and tertiary effects in a variety of parts of the brain.Remove the opiate and suddenly these membranes can get unstable hence anxiet,poor sleep,general odd feelings etc.Phenytoin is not what you could call orthodox therapy for tapers/wd.The studies sadly aren't great.A lot are old and not subject to contemporary standards abd a lot of them use questionable primary and secondary end-points.ie some good quality work needs to be done on it.But you could say that for ketamine(russians swear by it) etc.
I think it advisable to paint a true picture of phenytoin.It is genuinely a pharmacolgical pandemonium. Or perhaps better phrased if you want to understand clin. pharmacology phenytoin embodies all the priciple and pitfalls.These are as follows;(sorry might get academic but i'd rather a even-handed picture were painted);
1)Docs prob wont prescribe it as its not-orthodox and they dont have experience
2)?objective clinical endpoints-bit vague
3)Low-therapeutic index ie the differnce between a good dose and a toxic one may be tiny
4)dose-response curve unpredictable
5)Metabolism-non-linear,enzyme inducer-ie will speed up the metabolisn of other drugs incl. bupe.
6)side-effects-fries your cerebellum-bit like being very drunk.Longer term legion effects
7)Teratogenic-ie produces a nasty fetal hydantoin syndrome-you dont want this risk girls-of course phenytoin actually would cause a lady on the pill to become fertile,fall pregnant and then have a teratogenic effect-bit of a mess.
I could continue. I accept there is a role and prob a valid one in detox.Decent work needs done.Care needs to be taken for all the above reasons and more.Hope that paints a clearer picure.That said if your getting benefit on it ssavan then excellent.Just may not be the magic bullet for everyone.
i've given this drug to patients for 25 years--i've SEEN the side effects so i really don't need to read the studies--but i may check them out. i believe the ssri's are WAY OVER PRESCRIBED!! 5htp, st. johns wort, rhodiola, samE, DLPA and tyrosine work just as well. i've become leery of most presription meds that alter brain chemistry--because they just make it worse! the natural stuff has no side effects and works just as well. have you ever looked inside someone's mouth who has been on dilantin for a while?? it's scary!! the gums are huge and grow over the teeth, and i've personally seen most of the other side effects i listed. i would go cold turkey before i would use dilantin!
i concur in your concerns re phenytoin.You really dont want gingival hyperplasis,coarsening of the facies,dupuytrens contractures...i could go on.
To assert that natural meds(as cited above) are safe and side-effect free is a little myopic. Take St Johns Wort (h.perforans sp.) now one cannot say it is without side-effects (cows get sick if they eat it).It even induces enzymes like phenytoin.The meta-analyses of efficacy are at best superior to placebo.There is a big us NIH study that rubbishes it.That said it is used 1st line in germany for mild-mod depression to generally good effect.I could go on about 5HTP,kava etc.I dont wish to shoot you dont rather paint a balanced picture.Suffice it to say coming off opiates causes a bit of shock to the system.Therapies exist to help some better evaluated than others,some not even uniformly available.So its a bit of a lottery.
I agree the with you. There are natural solutions to many common problems that immediatly smothered in medications rather than looking into the natural apporach. Dilantin in low doses (100mg and lower) is almost a different medication. Side effects come with all medications but one must weight the risks and benefits. Which is why the therapeutic trial is suggested with medications and uses like this. The therapeutic trial is something that has virtually vanished from conventional medicine. As my professors in med school have explained to me, the therapeutic trial of medications was well taught and practiced throughout the 70's but started to decline in the 80's and is almost completely gone today. There are side effects that appear with long term use of many medications, but Dilatin has proved to have few compared to the vast array of medications given to people suffering from anxiety and depression. I would much rather use low dose Dilantin for 15 years for depression than prozac for the same amount of time. I think the mind altering effect of SSRI's are extremely damaging and they bring more side effects than Dilantin ever would.
Even though the studies PROVE Dilantin's safety and effectiveness for both long and short term uses, I am merely suggesting the possibitly that many people using Suboxone may greatly benefit from using Dilantin for the period of tapering and complete withdrawal. I was put on Suboxone years ago as an alternative to Hydrocodone for a terrible back injury damaging my sciatic nerve. I have now controlled the pain and am looking for methods of completly separating myself from Suboxone and all opiate pain killers forever.
Dilantin is much safer than the SSRIS ( commonly used for detoxing from opiates), and Benzos(commonly used for detoxing from opiates). Both mind altering, some addictive, some extremely addictive, all bring terrible side effects. I will report more on my use of Dilantin through my taper period and withdrawel.And all I suggest is that people read and research the benefits that this drug can offer to people going through opiate addiction as well as depression and anxiety. I think its safe to say that if one was intent on getting a prescription for an SSRI, Dilantin is a much safer and proven effective medication for many of the problems people are seeking to find treatment for. Research, research, research. The doctor's and professors at University of Michigan were not taught this information in medical school and havent had alot of experience using Dilantin in this way. Yet many of my professors understand the benefits of it and are beginning to pass the research onto their students.
i accept what you say regards 1)therapeutic trials philosophically and medically and 2)the safer profile of low dose phenytoin.Further to 1)pharmacology is taught v badly and most doc aint got a clue about it.Hence it is often blind leading the blind.I work amongst other things in tox.c 25% of all medical admissions are due to pharma chaos.Point proven.In essence every prescription is a therapeutic trial.ie surmise diagnosis test a med review adjust/alter.Sometimes its a n=1 trial but not many do that. Regards 2)I accept 100mg tds is a low dose of phenytoin.I accept you are deriving benefit.I suppose the concern i might have is that ( excepting yourself and quite a few other aux etas-unis-chronic pain) most individuals detoxing over here are poly-substance users including c2h5oh.That is potentially a bad combo.I am not sure i would wantr to be on phenytoin for a prolonged period unless it proved more efficacious than alternatives.May well be the case.As you say and i echoed a little pertinent high quality research might clarify issues.The fact it is long of patent muddies the waters.
In any case hope A Arbor is nice
All the best
steve, i definitely agree with you about the ssri's and benzo's--they only create more problems and stopping benzo's can be fatal. i think anyone should at least give the natural alternatives a try--they really do help most people. of course they don't work overnight--just like the ssri's. people have to be patient--try them for at least a month and just see--they may be surprised! i take samE, 5htp and st johns along with a complete free-form amino blend--i was on ssri's and these supps are working better for me and they aren't addictive. now if someone is on an ssri--they need to ask their dr. before trying these supps, so they don't get overloaded on serotonin--which can be dangerous also. but for me, personally, i would never use dilantin to detox because i've seen the side effects over and over and over. we've got enough problems getting off the opiates and getting our brain chemistry back to normal--i think dilantin would only make things worse, IMO!
i accept what you say re benzos(diazepam is going to be heavily restricted/withdrawn here-that'll be amusing) and ssris( though to be fair they are pretty efficacious-funnily enough more so at triple standard dose for bulimics but thats another story).SSRIs are as a rule pretty clean meds but due to their ubiquitous use populations not part of the clinical trials have perhaps behaved not as accepted.Again another story.You are correct re ssris and 5htp.I have seen serotonin syndrome with st johns wort-bit like too much mdma.I should stress that st johns wort and 5htp itself can precipitae serotonin syndrome(small print stuff and I'm sure most people are dandy,but one to be aware of).5HTP,anecdotally seems quite efficacious.Any way all the best.
just thinking about phenytoin again.Question for you,I note you cited a bad sciatic injury,need for opiates but now your getting on top of the pain and wish to be opiate free.Great i applaud that.Just interested what you suspect the mechanism for bring the pain in to abeyance is?function of time?the opiates(that said bupe isnt much of a pain killer)?phenytoin.It migh be intersting to see if your pain in anyway altered with introduction of phenytoin.Just a thought.Cheers M'camera
I had a terrible Sciatic nerve injury several years ago which is the origin of my opiate use. The injury occurred when I was beginning highschool. I originally was seeking help from conventional doctors who put me on hyrdocodone for several months. I was using more than I should of throughout that period of time though, not much more but tha pain alleviating effects obviously began to decline with time. I dont feel that the injury is to blame for everything though, I definitly have addiction problems of my own that mixed with a prescription of hyrdocodone didnt go well.
After almost a year of using Vicodin for pain I was put on Suboxone as both a treatment for addiction and for the Sciatic nerve pain. It was definitly an alternative. Not sure if it was the best alternative , but it seemed like a better choice between the two. I have been on Suboxone for around 4 years now. It has caused hormonal problems as well which is another issue all together.
I had seen dozens of doctors for the Sciatic nerve issue and seemed to get the same advice, which was cortisone shots and chiropractic work. U of M hospital actually wanted me to schedule surgery. It was a absolute terrible situation. I finally found my way to a D.O. near in Ann Arbor Michigan (also,where I live). The first thing he tried was an injection of Serapin, which is an extract from the Pitcher Plant-obviously not considered in conventional medicine. 15 days after the injection I was almost completely pain free. I still get pain, but much more manageable.
Dilantin was suggested to me by my doctor who thought it may be helpful during this taper phase and throughout the transitional period while coming back to "normal". My doctor uses Dilantin before ever prescribing SSRI's to patients. He has told me that he has never written a prescription for it above 200mg for patients with non-seizure disorders. I think that the drug shows alot of promise.Side effects are evident with every medication. In almost every case the larger the dosage the more side effects. I am talking about doses around 50-100mg per day. Most physicians dont have much experience using Dilantin in adults at these doses. There is soo much research on Dilantin, I think its 40+ year history has produced many great research studies on Dilantin and its many uses. The reason I suggest that specific website on Dilantin is because of the collection of studies and research documents all located in one spot. Dilantin (at low doses) is much safer than the SSRI's presribed everyday for depression and anxiety.
Information in this forum is not monitored or provided by a medical professional. The information reflects member opinions only. Do not act on advice from these forums without first consulting a qualified medical professional. All content is copyrighted and protected by Aelius Group.