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  1. #1
    cros is offline Junior Member
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    Default I just dont get it.....

    I hear all these stories of people stopping taking suboxone cold turkey at as high a dose as 2 mg, without much trouble, i started out on 20 mg two years ago, over time leading to present day i have tapered down to taking aproximatley .25mg (yes, its an 1/8th of a 2mg pill) intranasal rather than sublingual, If i havent dosed in 24 hours im in hell. benzos help to get sleep and as long as i can move around all day i can handle the withdrawal durring the day , but im just wondering how much more of this bullsh*t is left to go through, i dont want to get hooked on benzos from using then for sleep while getting off the suboxone, but so far it seems to be working , it has been 3 weeks at .5 to .25 mg per day , but most days i take quite a bit of valium or xanax to treat some of my anxiety, so far it has been not comfortable, but not horrible, would i be better off to completly stop the suboxone, ask my doc for lots of benzos and just go through it CT with just the benzos for sleep, or should i just continue to taper my dosage with the benzos for sleep as well, just a lighter dose of benzos to keep in sync with the suboxone still taking.... Im so confused because i did the math the other day and right now im down to taking 0.85% of my original dosage of suboxone, wich to me is rediculous it should be no problem to stop taking , but it is, what should i do ? any advise? sorry for the long post and lack of good writing skiils, please help , any advise will just make me feel better..... anyone?

  2. #2
    uclifer is offline Senior Member
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    hi cros and welcome to the forum,

    1). according to what i've read, intra-nasal absorption can be 50% vs 30% for sub-lingual, so you are in effect getting more buprenorphine into your system and anecdotal reports also say it goes through you faster when you snort it. so, why not go sublingual (either pill crumbs or crushed powder).

    2). bupe withdrawals. i cannot see any pattern as to who has an easy time and who does not. there are just too many negative reports of people having a horrid time with acute withdrawals and the never ending PAWS and the medical community is in complete denial about it. However, your benzo use should be controlled - you don't want it to escalate into the stratosphere. benzo withdrawals are reported to be worse than opioid w/d. besides, clonidine is better for a lot of aspects of opioid withdrawals than benzos. for me, being on ativan and taking more to sleep never really worked right while in bupe withdrawals - it was this terrible feeling where i felt very sleepy and couldn't fall asleep. plus the memory loss from benzo use makes it undesirable for me. also, neurontin 100 x 3 times per day may easy the anxiety/sleeplessness. your mileage may vary.

    3). You've been between 0.5 and 0.25 mg for 3 weeks. try to taper and stay at 0.25 (sublingually) for 7-14 days, then jump off. The nalaxone in the suboxone may be working against you at these low doses (but may be not). Line up comfort meds for when you jump: clonidine, immodium, vitamins, etc.

    4). I do not recommend this, but If your withdrawals suck and you have un-addressed pain (like me), you may want to consider a reverse taper either with tylenol #3 or #4 or hydrocodone. Bupe has really increased my tolerance to 1.5 or 2 times to where it was before and these never ending acute withdrawals or PAWS or whatever the hell are just dragging and dragging, so I gave up and tried codeine #4 first which didn't work, now I am on hydro which I am not happy about being on, but what can I do when I feel there is an alien chest burster in my body.


    if there is one common theme in bupe success stories, it's having a very loooong taper.

    good luck

  3. #3
    jdude's Avatar
    jdude is offline Senior Member
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    Welcome cros. Even if the sub is a low dose, you've found out it's still potent. Two big red flags....sub intranasal rather than sublingual and benzos.

    If you using the sub intranasal,sounds like you may be exibiting some of the old DOC habits? That in itself may indicate you're not ready to jump. Then adding benzos to the mix,is just re-inforcing the old behavior? And can add bad reactions. Questions you need to ask...not judgements.

    IMO...ditch the benzos. Now B4 you create a gorilla from a monkey. Then find a stbile dose of sublingual sub. Start a log/journal and get stabile. See if you can ditch the DOC behavior first. After 2yrs on the sub....it's not a question of how fast you jump, but how permanently.

    Give yourself the breathing room the sub is intended for. Then the taper with clonidine will go alot smoother. Make sense?
    Stay well.

    <center>You can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking that caused them in the first place.</center>

  4. #4
    uclifer is offline Senior Member
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    jdude has a good point that I missed about your benzo use and also taking bupe intranasally (not as directed). listen to him! he knows what he is talking about.

    also, why are you taking both valium and xanax. what dose of each and for how long have you been on them? xanax is very addicting. and valium has a very long half-life (like 200 hrs). Because of the long half-life the Ashford Manual from the UK recommends using valium to get off other benzos since you can also get it in 2 or 1 mg doses. i am on low dose ativan and i've been on it for a while but have tapered down low enough to where I am skipping days. no probs so far, but then again, i don't find benzos euphoric, if you do (which i don't understand), god help you.


    PS: I took 200 mg neurontin last night and it helped with most of my bupe withdrawals except the depression, chills, and the pain. even the chills mutated into feeling like just feeling cold. i think that's an improvement, and i'll take it :) it also made me much more lethargic the next morning and difficult to get up. clonidine & immodium do not seem to work for me.


  5. #5
    lookingup is offline Senior Member
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    uclifer,

    Neurontin can be dosed up to 1800 mg a day, and I think it is one of those drugs that takes a little while to build up. I am going to talk to my Dr about it to get my taper going again. After getting to 1.5mg things got kind of tough for me. Hope it works for you, Submom (love2laugh) had some good success with it. She is MIA, hope she is OK.

  6. #6
    uclifer is offline Senior Member
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    hi lookingup,

    So you tapered down to 1.5 mg and the withdrawals are kicking your butt right now? How fast did you taper? I pretty much had to use clonidine every night to tie me over till the morning dose. Also, I dosed 2 times per day - splitting the dose in half. So, if I was on 1 mg, I'd take 0.5 mg in the morning and 0.5 mg in the evening. Dose splitting may help people when they get below 2 mg.

    As far as neurontin, yeah I know about having to load up on it. I just tried it last night again after taking a couple weeks break and it had the effects I described (kinda zombified me too). My pain doc originally scripted Lyrica to try for my pain which did absolutely nothing - so I have it lying around somewhere in here. Some people describe Lyrica as being helpful too for opioid withdrawal.

    I learned about Neurontin from Submom's posts and asked my pain doc to try it. I tried it during the sub taper with less than stellar results, so I gave up on it, until last night. I've been off sub for 26 days now and the withdrawals or PAWS or whatever have kicked my butt, so, I've been on hydro for the past week. I don't like it, but what choice do I have - the pain is too much to function on, and then the mental lock-ups - what's that all about. It's embarassing. No, of course, hydro doesn't help the mental lockups. Sometimes I want to hit myself on the head to knock the sub PAWS out. I am sooooo frustrated with myself and all these damn health problems. Things for me turned for the worse once my Gastroenterologist put me on high dose prednisone (40 mg for 5 months 2004-2006, with ~3 month breaks). That drug is a body killer. Taking prednisone with opiods is stupid and dangerous. I didn't know that at the time. It is a potent immuno suppressor which is why they put me on it since I have an overactive immune system which they think causes my Ulcerative Colitis (UC) (and its evil twin sister Chrohn's disease). Since none of the primary UC drugs work on me (5-aminosalysilic acid drugs), my choices are either prednisone (steroids) or even more powerful anti-rejection drugs like azathioprine, or cyclosporin, or removing the whole colon and getting a baggie (no thanks), or biologic treatment with Remicade or Humira or Embrel. There are some successful results in treating auto-immune diseases by using worms. Yes, worms. Like pig whip worms and even human hook worms. They think that our immune systems (which the gut is a part of), evolved to live with parasites like worms. And since we are so clean in the industrialized countries, we kill off all the parasites living in us which then make our immune systems hyperactive and attack the body. Hence things like UC, Chrohn's, allergies, asthma, MS, etc, etc. Since these worms are naturally existing non-patentable entities, the big pharma boyzzz aren't interested in it since they can sell me Remicade at $7K an infusion every 3 weeks rather than come up with a cure/semi-cure.

    Sorry to ramble and hijack cros' thread, but I am rather ticked off right now as to why I am in this particular spot in my life and why I can't get over it/move on.






    quote:Originally posted by lookingup

    uclifer,

    Neurontin can be dosed up to 1800 mg a day, and I think it is one of those drugs that takes a little while to build up. I am going to talk to my Dr about it to get my taper going again. After getting to 1.5mg things got kind of tough for me. Hope it works for you, Submom (love2laugh) had some good success with it. She is MIA, hope she is OK.

  7. #7
    lookingup is offline Senior Member
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    uclifer,

    Actually I am reasonably comfortable at 1.5mg, but getting here from 2mg was a good bit of work. I tried to get to 1.25 before Thanksgiving, but I got a lot of anxiety and depression, so I went back to 1.5 for the holidays, Christmas and New Years. Got to keep that from becoming New Years and Christmas ;) I want to get going again and figure I am in for more of the same, hoping the Neurontin will take the edge off some of it. Figure to hit the clonidine and Imodium after the jump if I can wait that long.

    Sorry about the thread hijack, but all info is good, so we just put it out when it comes up.

  8. #8
    uclifer is offline Senior Member
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    lookingup,

    yep, that's what neurontin did for me - take the edge off, more so than clonidine. i wouldn't call it 'super-amazing-best-thing-ever', but it was noticeable.

    If you are comfortable at 1.5 mg, continue with your taper. I had to use clonidine overnight once I reached 1.75 mg. I was also tapering with subutex, not suboxone. Is your plan to do 0.25 mg dose decreases and stay at a given level for 7 days or so? I think I botched my taper - I was just sick of feeling sick and sick of having to put that stupid white pill/crumbs under my tongue. So, I rushed it toward the end - I didn't stay at 0.5 or 0.25 mg long enough. This may explain why I am having such a hard time now, or not!

    So.... if you are patient, stick with a nice smooth taper - it may pay off once you get off. It's important to get the doses accurately when splitting the 2 mg pills into 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 - razor blade/pill splitter, or just crush it into powder and put that under your tongue.

    BTW, does anyone else feel or can substantiate my claim that bupe left me with a much larger tolerance than before?


  9. #9
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    Sluggo is offline Senior Member
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    my experience with Neurontin was like yours....took the edge off. and, I was told that it does need to build up in your body for effect. was advised not to just "take it as needed", but to begin taking it before I jumped and continue till I was comfortable not taking it anymore. My doc said I could take ~600mg 3x/day, but, I never took more than 400mgs in a day. usually 100 in am, 100 in afternoon, 200 at night.

    it helped me. I hated the clonidine.

    just my experience.

    Janice

  10. #10
    lookingup is offline Senior Member
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    I am planning a long slow taper over the next three months or so. No schedule, just a chip at a time, then adjust to the new level...I hope. I assume as I get lower it will get tougher and that is where I hope the Neurontin will take the edge off so I can keep going slow without being constantly miserable. I would hope not to get to the clonidine until after the jump, that stuff sounds like it is not much fun. My Dr. will not write tex, but the 2mg suboxone pills are easier to work with than the 8's. Right now it is dead of winter and a lousy time to feel miserable and cold from tapering. Having a hard time to get the motivation I had in the Fall.

    BTW cros, I can't really remember anybody jumping from 2mg and doing well. Don't let this get you too down in your head, it is not easy or fun, but for most, a long slow taper seems doable with some effort.

  11. #11
    dogpaw Guest

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    Hey lookingup,
    I jumped from 2mg, and am happy to report that I'm doing very well. I have a lot of "junkie messes" I left in my wake to still clean up, but I'm plowing through these too.
    Parabola jumped from 2mg, and has stayed clean too. She had a thread here, and her progress was amazing. She had the same determination that I felt. I was gonna rip the junk out of my body no matter what. Enough was enough. I decided it was time to be a big girl, look at myself squarely in the mirror, and face the consequences of my actions. Once I made the decision, the change took place in an instant. From that moment on, nothing, NO amount of pain, NO b.s. excuses, could shake my resolve. I had zero ambivalence. Physically, it was painful and chaotic, but mentally, at the core of my being, it was amazingly peaceful. When the pain got worse, I was like, "Bring it! Let's get this sh*t over with NOW!".
    I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, and this route isn't for everyone, but it was my experience.

    <center>*I'd rather pay the piper than pay the dealer*</center>
    <center>* If nothing changes, nothing changes *</center>

  12. #12
    lookingup is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by dogpaw

    Hey lookingup,
    I jumped from 2mg, and am happy to report that I'm doing very well. Parabola jumped from 2mg, and has stayed clean too. Physically, it was painful and chaotic, but mentally, at the core of my being, it was amazingly peaceful. When the pain got worse, I was like, "Bring it! Let's get this sh*t over with NOW!".
    I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, and this route isn't for everyone, but it was my experience.

    <center>*I'd rather pay the piper than pay the dealer*</center>
    <center>* If nothing changes, nothing changes *</center>
    Dog, I used the wrong words, I should have said it has been done, but it was not easy. My bad. I didn't mean to tell cros it wasn't doable or worth it, but his statement was:

    "I hear all these stories of people stopping taking suboxone cold turkey at as high a dose as 2 mg, without much trouble"

    I meant to respond to the "without much trouble part". You had incredible determination. You are doing well now, but it was not easy. I meant to say I have not seen anyone jump from 2mg and have an easy time of it.

    I need to read what I write before hitting enter!

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