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  1. #133
    manrayscamera is offline Senior Member
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    Hi,
    things may have gone a little off target but thats a bit like water finding a path of least resistance and i'm certainly not one to scold.I take on board alrelenewla's points and well on the >2k days.It's interesting to think of the addict mentality as per a'lwa ie some is good more is much much better but there can never be enough.Bit like giving an addict a weeks methadone to take home and it's gone in a day.One well known detoxologist uses the analogy of the safety blanket.You swathe yourself in it and it is manifested by opiates/alcohol etc.Without this blanket you are vulnerable,this being wd in the first case and then for some the utter void that replaces the addicted existence.Feeling ok is so much better than wd but you wan to feel better and you know how.Tough.For each their own way.Some religion,some 12 step,exercise etc.And at this point it's over to Kipling again....If

    IF you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
    And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
    If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    ' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
    if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
    And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!


    For man re human

    Cheers
    M'camera

  2. #134
    Sluggo's Avatar
    Sluggo is offline Senior Member
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    how much wood coulda woodchuck chuck....?

  3. #135
    Sluggo's Avatar
    Sluggo is offline Senior Member
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    Bless you.

    edit: Gezundheit

  4. #136
    sandersw is offline Senior Member
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    God bless you and thanks for sharing that. you are as special as I thought you were. I understand now[quote]quote:Originally posted by arlenewla

    quote:Originally posted by sandersw
    Arlene,

    You are very wise and have walked the walk. I am not sure If I understand the concept of allergy of the body and craving. Please explain this concept to me. Also how long did it take for you to feel normal or to achieve a sense of well being, to regain your motivation etc. after you quit using.
    Thank you Mike, and I return the compliment.

    The allergy of the body/phenomenon of craving. First, know that you and Manrays totally outclass me when it comes to the science of it all.

    The allergy of the body, for me, translates to tolerance. I almost uptaked (uptook?) myself out of existence. Uptaked to the point of spiraling down. Oxymoron, kind'a sort of. Like smart addict.

    I've created new opiate receptors...a ton. Saturated. They never disappear...only going into a dormant state. Should I take an opiate...my receptors will say, "Hey there handsome...we've been waiting for you. Nice to see you again. Some of us are running on empty. Now, give us more. More is what we're having.

    Tell you how strongly I feel about my physical allergy.

    You know how, when you go to a new doctor's office and they ask you if you have any allergies? This is basically a conversation I've had many a new doctor since I got clean & sober. "So, m'am, do you have any allergies? Yes, I do doctor...I allergic to all narcotics...opiates...benzo's."

    "Well, m'am, that's not what we mean. By allergy, we mean to something like Pencillan, where you go into an anaphlyactic shock and your throat closes up, you can't breath and you break out in hives."

    "Doctor...that's exactly what I mean. When I ingest opiates/benzo's...I go into shock...my throat will close up and then I'll spit out pea soup, my head will rotate 360 degrees, a voice will come out of me that will be unrecognizable and I'll break out in a rash of sh*tty behavior...following which, my life will go to sh*t."

    By the time I'm done...they have placed a red allergic sticker on my chart. Whether or not they understand why is none of my business. I understand my allergy. The finality of the sticker is probably their response to taking the easier, softer way...hey, get this broad out of my office...let's see how we can medically fix her.

    I have an enormous tolerance. Pig. The "big bad" junkie in me would say that I could outdose any 6'7", 350lb man when it comes to Methadone...left to my own devices. That's the Goliath I face should I take an opiate. And everyone on this site faces their own Goliath. Its never comparative.

    Again left to my own devices, I'll run with it. My intent and agenda...my motives...for taking an opiate even in a time of medical need are always suspect. Always require a check and a double-check by others I've come to trust.

    You ask how long did it take for me to [u]feel normal</u> or to achieve a sense of well being, to regain my motivation, etc., [u]after</u> I quit using?

    Well, that would be exactly 2,139 days and 10 hours. Nights and weekends too. But then again, who's counting?:D I don't count the 4 months previous when I was being detoxed..detoxed from Methadone with Methadone.

    Mike, fortunately, I didn't look to feel normal. I looked for the new normal. The old normal (pre using) was a piece of work. The same old normal that led me to drugs as the final solution in my life. Nope...actually looked for nothing more than an entire change in my being; body/mind/spirit. Not much of an order, huh?

    And in all honesty, Mike, I never thought about this entire c

  5. #137
    glassbottom's Avatar
    glassbottom is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by tubalkain

    Thanks for the study Mr Sanders, will delve right in.
    whatever it is...I'm sure it will solve all your problems with morphine.:)

  6. #138
    cgdg is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by glassbottom


    whatever it is...I'm sure it will solve all your problems with morphine.:)



    Dude ...why such a negative, angry, hostile vibe? Maybe up the valerian root, and cut back on the Red Bull?




  7. #139
    arlenewla is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by manrayscamera

    Hi,
    things may have gone a little off target but thats a bit like water finding a path of least resistance and i'm certainly not one to scold.I take on board alrelenewla's points and well on the &gt;2k days.It's interesting to think of the addict mentality as per a'lwa ie some is good more is much much better but there can never be enough.Bit like giving an addict a weeks methadone to take home and it's gone in a day.One well known detoxologist uses the analogy of the safety blanket.You swathe yourself in it and it is manifested by opiates/alcohol etc.Without this blanket you are vulnerable,this being wd in the first case and then for some the utter void that replaces the addicted existence.Feeling ok is so much better than wd but you wan to feel better and you know how.Tough.For each their own way.Some religion,some 12 step,exercise etc.And at this point it's over to Kipling again....If

    IF you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
    And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
    If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,

    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    ' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
    if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
    And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!


    For man re human
    For woman re human.[;^)]

    Hi Manrays ~ I was that opiate addict who would receive a week's worth of take homes and they were gone within 3 days. That's exactly how I fell into the charming habit of copping more and more Methadone on the streets.

    As you know, there is no ceiling effect with Methadone since its a full agonist. For junkies like me, put a full agonist in our hands, and damn...we'll abuse it. No brainer. I don't care how long the half life is or is not. I'll be having more.

    This was back in the day when 125mg was all she wrote for take homes...and that required a federal/state dispensation. So, I self dispensed as well as clinic dispensed. Not unusual. Actually, somewhat of a no brainer for an active junkie. 125mg too much...and 250mg never enough. I was on my way to copping more and more....that's how large my physical tolerance.

    Today's MMT clinics operate differently...doses are obscenely high (I've heard tell of up to 400mg)...which makes the trap so much greater. The longer on Methadone, the higher the tolerance, the larger doses, the less likelihood that one ever gets off. The Graying Of Methadone Maintenance.

    And if extra Me

  8. #140
    arlenewla is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by sandersw

    God bless you and thanks for sharing that. you are as special as I thought you were. I understand now
    Thank you again, Mike.

    In recovery, I seek to remain transparent. Transparent and congruent.

    One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of active addicts is in the playing of the shell game...shifting the focus off of our own behavior when it becomes too uncomfortable. Hell....I held a Ph.D. in that. Damn I was good...and the problem was that I believed my own crap. How very sad.

    I would look to everyone and everywhere rather than zero in on and own the problem.

    The problem wasn't the Methadone (or the Percodan before that). I was the problem. The drugs worked just great...until the bitter end. And there's always end. No free lunch.

    Came time to pay the bill and it was a whopper. Took myself apart...piece by piece...peeling the onion...trying to figure who was in there. What was at the core. The fear of course, was that there wouldn't be anyone...anything left...when I finished the process.

    And yet, as uncertain and fearful as I was, I moved forward. I had been stuck for too many years on MMT. I had to move forward...or die. I had to dismiss utilizing all substances as my solution to living. It was an imperative for me.

    Recovery, for me, isn't about detox. Detox, WD, PAWS is child's play when compared to recovery. It was the least of my issues. Yeah...it must be done in order to go forward. That's true. I stopped using...went through a fairly miserable physical period. And frankly for me, its a so what? The only time I ever speak of that period is when I'm trying to support a junkie who is detoxing. Otherwise, its immaterial to my recovery.

    It's everything I did after...and continue to do after...that really counts. How do I live? How do I love? How do I care? What are my passions? For me...these questions are all answered in one word: [u]action</u>. That was my Key For Recovery.

    The sum and substance of my recovery is noted in my signature. Its a quote from my CEO. I feel very blessed to one of those whom are embodied in that quote.

    Warmly,
    Ar



    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
    </center>

  9. #141
    arlenewla is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by Ruthie

    Arl writes"
    And Ruthie...I'm looking at your closing comment. One that I personally see as some type of a red neon sign.

    As my grandmother used to say, when in self-pity, "Don't worry about me. I'll be fine. I'll just stick my head in the oven now." And who the hell knows, maybe that Jewish thing...guilting. Then again, it could be an addict thing.


    No Arl-it was said in irony. Not to fear..

    Irony
    1: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony
    2 a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c: an ironic expression or utterance
    3 a (1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2): an event or result marked by such incongruity


    quote:Originally posted by Ruth

    Ruth-doing just peachy, thanks for asking.
    If you re-read what I wrote to you, Ruth, I was talking about self-pity...and that's the word I used. Using that as example of how addicts have a tendency to manipulate others to feel sorry for them. The woe is me.

    You brought up the word fear, not I.

    When you posted on the Sub forum asking about transferring from Methadone to Sub, an alarm bell went off for me. I saw fear.

    Ruth...you asked sometime ago, that I explain the difference between a chronic pain (dependent) patient and an addict. I did my best to offer that definition...as I know it as an addict. I also said that you will not know whether you are or are not an addict until your Methadone taper is finished. I also indicated that I would be alert to signs that I see as common traits shared by addicts as you went along.

    I see certain shared traits. That's my perception. And hun'...if it doesn't apply...let it fly.

    And I thank you for the linguistics lesson, however I have a fairly good command of the English language.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
    </center>

  10. #142
    manrayscamera is offline Senior Member
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    Hi,
    i read arelenwla's posts and bleak as they are at imes they certainly communicate both sides of the addicition issue ie when you have what you need 15mg meth is good but a takeout litre bottle better and the notion the void is directly proportional to the amount of opiates required to fill it.Or perhaps better phrased appears to be.It's all learned behaviour and its interaction with reward/behavioural cycles.WIth these more is better.Remove the stimulus and these cycles go into free fall.Tough nut to crack.If i had to venture a good solution( and meth it isn't) i would guess in about 20 years we'll have the grandchild of buprenorphine or possibly some form of endolphin/enkephelin upregulator or half-life prolonger.The forner is prob a beeter option.In the interim let us not discount other avenues unless they fail to withstand appropriate evidential rigour.
    Hope you find peace and keep celebrating xmas for the right reasons arlene

    Cheers
    M'camera

  11. #143
    arlenewla is offline Senior Member
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    quote:Originally posted by tubalkain

    This may explain some of our disagreements. We're not all the same. I was getting takeaway methadone for many years and seldom, if ever, took more than my daily dose and most hardcore junkies I knew didn't do that either. It's like in those extreme survival shows, you have to ration your water if stranded in desert. You might have had a more serious problem than the average addict.


    Also sex, not everyone found the first time to be the best and/or kept chasing the virginity. In fact, most girls I know got to enjoy sex more later on in life. Seems to be one of those practice makes perfect things, not to be given up too soon perhaps.
    That is one of the most patently ludicrous statements I've ever seen on this site...its absolutely jaw dropping. Have you bumped your head?

    So what I just heard you say is that you're an addict who has the ability to control and ration his opiates. If that's true, then hun'... you are quite unique. I just pray, not terminally so. Better man than I Gunga Din.

    So, in the interim, I'll just chalk up your entire statement to the fact that you're remain high and continue to look for alternative methods to assuage who and what you are. You've just added denial to that list of supplements.

    And as for the sex analogy re chasing that first high, Tub...you again missed my entire point. Here's one you might be able to relate to; that "aaahhhh moment...that where you have been all my life moment??!!" And I don't know about you, babe, but I practiced trying to replicate that feeling until I was 55+1/2 years. But what the hell do I know, I was a hard core junkie with serious problems...like loving to get high and not feeeeeling. I should have switched to morphine...that would have kept on a more controlled path. Practice makes perfect, right?


    quote:Originally posted by manrayscamera

    read arelenwla's posts and bleak as they are at imes they certainly communicate both sides of the addicition issue ie when you have what you need 15mg meth is good but a takeout litre bottle better and the notion the void is directly proportional to the amount of opiates required to fill it.Or perhaps better phrased appears to be.It's all learned behaviour and its interaction with reward/behavioural cycles.WIth these more is better.Remove the stimulus and these cycles go into free fall.Tough nut to crack.If i had to venture a good solution( and meth it isn't) i would guess in about 20 years we'll have the grandchild of buprenorphine or possibly some form of endolphin/enkephelin upregulator or half-life prolonger.The forner is prob a beeter option.In the interim let us not discount other avenues unless they fail to withstand appropriate evidential rigour.
    Hope you find peace and keep celebrating xmas for the right reasons arlene
    My friend, if you fnd my posts bleak, then you have not internalized anything about the recovery aspect.

    Frankly, I find your statement vis a vis a good solution the bleakest of them all so much so that I just glanced up at the pictures of my 2 grandchildren.

    And yes, I celebrate Christmas for one reason and one reason only. And it is very much the right reason for me. I was given the opportunity to learn how to live without drugs and to flourish. There is great peace there. And, that me, is a reason to rejoice the day.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>[b]<font

  12. #144
    manrayscamera is offline Senior Member
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    Hi,
    sorry my asserion is bleak regards any decent therapy in the pipeline but it is there or there abouts.Nobody is doing much work re new meds and addiction.Sorry statement of fact.

    M'camera

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